Are Drysuit Undergarments really necessary?
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guyelix
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Use good padded overalls as a standard and add thin woollen undergarments closest to the body if this is not enough, e.g. ski underwear. These will transport moisture away from your body and keep you warm. Cotton is useless: ask any sheep.
evil_xander
Contributor
They are not really necessary until you flood your suit or puncture it. Then you start to appreciate specifics of certain fabrics/designs. Other than this, pretty much anything can do in a pinch, apart from cotton.
Just keep in mind that too many layers or too thick undergarment = limited flexibility...
Just keep in mind that too many layers or too thick undergarment = limited flexibility...
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At Roy. I think his situation was similar to the guys that say "you get what you pay for"
There is something about that when you're talking about cheap fleeces and various things. You have to look at the material. Underarmour is all pretty much the same material as far as it being poly. It's cold gear, which is the same as DuPont's Thermax fibers look like long tunnel pasta. Or wool fibers, which is what they are trying to mimic. The coolmax or warm gear looks like three balls stacked on top of each other, creating a double scallop on each side which wicks moisture. Same material, but the warm gear won't do jack to keep you warm.
With the polartec stuff, all polartec is the same. It's a brand name of a fiber, not any "synthetic fleece", so
Fourth Element Undergarments - Xerotherm Undergarments - Xerotherm Tops - Northeast Scuba Supply
DUI - Polartec PowerStretch DiveWear. Less bulk more warmth
REI Heavyweight Polartec Power Dry Zip-T - Men's at REI.com
All three of those use the same fabric
$600 for the DUI jumpsuit, $220 for the 4th element, and $90 for the REI. Some have different features, like the extra length in the 4th element, the crotch strap, and various other things, but it's the same fabric. The REI will keep you as warm as the DUI will.
There is something about that when you're talking about cheap fleeces and various things. You have to look at the material. Underarmour is all pretty much the same material as far as it being poly. It's cold gear, which is the same as DuPont's Thermax fibers look like long tunnel pasta. Or wool fibers, which is what they are trying to mimic. The coolmax or warm gear looks like three balls stacked on top of each other, creating a double scallop on each side which wicks moisture. Same material, but the warm gear won't do jack to keep you warm.
With the polartec stuff, all polartec is the same. It's a brand name of a fiber, not any "synthetic fleece", so
Fourth Element Undergarments - Xerotherm Undergarments - Xerotherm Tops - Northeast Scuba Supply
DUI - Polartec PowerStretch DiveWear. Less bulk more warmth
REI Heavyweight Polartec Power Dry Zip-T - Men's at REI.com
All three of those use the same fabric
$600 for the DUI jumpsuit, $220 for the 4th element, and $90 for the REI. Some have different features, like the extra length in the 4th element, the crotch strap, and various other things, but it's the same fabric. The REI will keep you as warm as the DUI will.
manni-yunk
Contributor
So what would be a better base layer - the UA cold gear or the REI Polartec - they are both about the same price for a top and bottom set with UA being slightly more.
Thanks for all the great info, I'm still sorting things out.
Can there be a difference in weight (thickness?) of the Polartec Power Stretch fabrics used by different companies? For example, the DUI product is "560 gm/m2", but the Xerotherm weight isn't given.
Then there's the eBay 250g/sqm POLARTEC DRYSUIT UNDERGARMENT 1 LAYER - MEDIUM - eBay (item 130464410290 end time Jan-09-11 08:40:18 PST) which says "250 gm/m2 4-way stretchy polartec", which I'm guessing isn't "Power Stretch" but another flavor of Polartec.
Thanks for any clarification.
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Depends on your diving for the base layers. When I'm diving in anything about say 60 degrees, I wear lightweight REI Polartec bottoms with UA boxers, a UA T-shirt and midweight REI top. Stay nice and warm, but I love the cold and it doesn't bother me hardly ever. I can wear cotton pajama bottoms down to 55 ish degrees and am good for a 90 minute dive.
If you're cold natured I'd stick with the REI stuff just because it's long underwear where most of the UA is traditional short boxers and stuff.
On the ebay thing. I don't like jumpsuits. They're not practical. Your legs don't need as much insulation as your chest, neither do your arms. Get a good base layer around your arms and legs and insulate the bejeezis out of your chest. The other nice thing about this layering concept and using NORMAL clothes, is you can wear them anywhere. I use the same undergarments for skiing as I do for diving. I wear wind pants and a windbreaker when I'm skiing because my undergarments keep me warm, and they keep the wind out, which is all I need. That way you can get the versatility out of them. 4th Element got this and came out with the layering system. With the polartec, the thicker it is the better it will insulate, but you want to get a baselayer for the warmest water you'll dive in. For most of us that's the caves, so mid 70's. You also have to think about your dive times. If you do long deco, you don't want to get cold there. I love my nomad because it allows me to stretch out when I'm hanging, promotes blood flow. I also do weird acrobatics when hanging and flip upsidedown and stuff to get my blood moving around. Some of my buddies think I'm insane, but it works for me.
back to undies.
yes, some of them are thicker, but if you're layering properly, you want to avoid thick. Thick is warm, yes, but thick blows when it's wet. So for the cheap skates like me, that hate the scuba industry and the ridonkulous markups
My recommendations, these will be tops only, but they come in matching pairs for the most part, and mens only, but the girlies have similar stuff
http://www.rei.com/product/801931-base, may get a little hot in the caves...
http://www.rei.com/product/802242-next, I dive with these down to 40 degrees for 2 hours, normal people will probably call it quits at about 50-55 ish, worn on top of hte base. Keep in mind, neither of these offer any wind protection.
Now, if you're cold natured, you may as well just get the 4th element Xerotherm Arctic. Their tops, are phenomenal. For $150, for the jacket, you've got a great jacket, as well as something that you can wear out every day, and stay warm.
The real thick Polartec stuff gets expensive, the fabric is not cheap to make, and it's brutal on sewing machines. It eats needles for breakfast, and is some tough stuff to sew. Polyester is almost as tough as kevlar, so it's a bear to work with.
So wear the REI underwear, then stick the 4th element arctic on top of it, and you'll be snug as a bug in a rug.
If you're cold natured I'd stick with the REI stuff just because it's long underwear where most of the UA is traditional short boxers and stuff.
On the ebay thing. I don't like jumpsuits. They're not practical. Your legs don't need as much insulation as your chest, neither do your arms. Get a good base layer around your arms and legs and insulate the bejeezis out of your chest. The other nice thing about this layering concept and using NORMAL clothes, is you can wear them anywhere. I use the same undergarments for skiing as I do for diving. I wear wind pants and a windbreaker when I'm skiing because my undergarments keep me warm, and they keep the wind out, which is all I need. That way you can get the versatility out of them. 4th Element got this and came out with the layering system. With the polartec, the thicker it is the better it will insulate, but you want to get a baselayer for the warmest water you'll dive in. For most of us that's the caves, so mid 70's. You also have to think about your dive times. If you do long deco, you don't want to get cold there. I love my nomad because it allows me to stretch out when I'm hanging, promotes blood flow. I also do weird acrobatics when hanging and flip upsidedown and stuff to get my blood moving around. Some of my buddies think I'm insane, but it works for me.
back to undies.
yes, some of them are thicker, but if you're layering properly, you want to avoid thick. Thick is warm, yes, but thick blows when it's wet. So for the cheap skates like me, that hate the scuba industry and the ridonkulous markups
My recommendations, these will be tops only, but they come in matching pairs for the most part, and mens only, but the girlies have similar stuff
http://www.rei.com/product/801931-base, may get a little hot in the caves...
http://www.rei.com/product/802242-next, I dive with these down to 40 degrees for 2 hours, normal people will probably call it quits at about 50-55 ish, worn on top of hte base. Keep in mind, neither of these offer any wind protection.
Now, if you're cold natured, you may as well just get the 4th element Xerotherm Arctic. Their tops, are phenomenal. For $150, for the jacket, you've got a great jacket, as well as something that you can wear out every day, and stay warm.
The real thick Polartec stuff gets expensive, the fabric is not cheap to make, and it's brutal on sewing machines. It eats needles for breakfast, and is some tough stuff to sew. Polyester is almost as tough as kevlar, so it's a bear to work with.
So wear the REI underwear, then stick the 4th element arctic on top of it, and you'll be snug as a bug in a rug.
manni-yunk
Contributor
Well not really. Maybe most of what you have - but not most of what exists. I have UA coldgear in long pants - long sleeve shirts, short sleeve shirts, etc and a mix of heat gear as well.
Hunters, fisherman, Martial artists (just to name a few) have UA in all sorts of flavor.
So all things being equal (short sleeve to short sleeve, long to long) - what would be a better base layer - UA or REI Polartec?
You want several things from a dry suit undergarment -- but how much of each thing you want, depends on where you are diving the dry suit.
In relatively warm water (above 70 degrees) almost any insulation will do, and you have plenty of time to terminate a dive safely if you are wet. There, you can value mobility over total insulation or safety when wet, and almost anything will do. Above 70 degrees, I dive Land's End fleece sweats. If I get wet, I'm uncomfortable, and will eventually be cold, but not cold enough to be at risk. And the undergarments are cheap, flexible, and dry quickly.
Between 60 and 70, you need a bit more insulation, and depending on the dives you are doing, you may or may not be safe if you are wet. There, I really want something that isn't bulky and doesn't require a ton of weight to sink, and which will insulate if wet and I have a lot way to go to get out of the water. There, I use a 200g Thinsulate undergarment. I have proven that it will continue to insulate when quite wet, and it is thin enough, light enough, and requires little enough weight to sink that I'm happy with it. Layering the cheap fleece I use in warmer water would certainly keep me warm, but would require more weight, and would not work as well when wet.
In the 50's, I'm willing to trade off some flexibility, and accept some additional weight, for the safety involved in being warm when wet. I have had a dry suit flood on a dive with a max depth of 40 feet. No problem? Except we were more than 30 minutes from shore, swimming. I was profoundly glad of my expensive undergarments by the time we got home. I think I would have been in the hospital (if I had even made it back) if I had used skiing stuff and layered it. (It's not designed to function when wet.)
In the 40's -- you're at serious risk if your suit floods. There, you absolutely want to prioritize the maximum insulation of every part of you, that works when sopping wet.
So no -- you don't need purpose-made undergarments for the Mexican caves, or even perhaps for summer Southern California diving. But if you are doing true dry suit diving, consider the worst case scenario. I have been hypothermic to the point where I couldn't get out of the water without substantial assistance, and couldn't walk well enough to get to my dry clothes. I do not ever want to experience that again.
In relatively warm water (above 70 degrees) almost any insulation will do, and you have plenty of time to terminate a dive safely if you are wet. There, you can value mobility over total insulation or safety when wet, and almost anything will do. Above 70 degrees, I dive Land's End fleece sweats. If I get wet, I'm uncomfortable, and will eventually be cold, but not cold enough to be at risk. And the undergarments are cheap, flexible, and dry quickly.
Between 60 and 70, you need a bit more insulation, and depending on the dives you are doing, you may or may not be safe if you are wet. There, I really want something that isn't bulky and doesn't require a ton of weight to sink, and which will insulate if wet and I have a lot way to go to get out of the water. There, I use a 200g Thinsulate undergarment. I have proven that it will continue to insulate when quite wet, and it is thin enough, light enough, and requires little enough weight to sink that I'm happy with it. Layering the cheap fleece I use in warmer water would certainly keep me warm, but would require more weight, and would not work as well when wet.
In the 50's, I'm willing to trade off some flexibility, and accept some additional weight, for the safety involved in being warm when wet. I have had a dry suit flood on a dive with a max depth of 40 feet. No problem? Except we were more than 30 minutes from shore, swimming. I was profoundly glad of my expensive undergarments by the time we got home. I think I would have been in the hospital (if I had even made it back) if I had used skiing stuff and layered it. (It's not designed to function when wet.)
In the 40's -- you're at serious risk if your suit floods. There, you absolutely want to prioritize the maximum insulation of every part of you, that works when sopping wet.
So no -- you don't need purpose-made undergarments for the Mexican caves, or even perhaps for summer Southern California diving. But if you are doing true dry suit diving, consider the worst case scenario. I have been hypothermic to the point where I couldn't get out of the water without substantial assistance, and couldn't walk well enough to get to my dry clothes. I do not ever want to experience that again.
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