Are Atomics worth the cash?

[rsingler]

Does anyone have the z3? Is getting the sealed version worth it if i live in South Florida and do all my diving in warm water? If it is less prone to corrosion, then yes, it is.
The b2 looks cool too, with the swivel 1st stage. It also has a different 2nd internal. Not sure the swivel makes of breaks the deal maybe oneon the 1st stage (but a must have on the second.)

Have any of you actually ran the reg for two solid years without a service? that just makes me nervous. It's like the new outboard motors. One of them claim you can run hundreds of hours without a service- but try budging lower unit bolts that have been soaked with saltwater for that long!

If you dive pistons, environmental sealing is ABSOLUTELY the way to go. Think about it: suspended sand drifting in through the environmental holes as you come in to the beach through a little surge. The grains settle against the edge of the piston cap and a few stick to the wall or the edge of the piston. When you depressurize, they get caught in the oring groove when the piston retracts off the HP seat. Next time you pressurize, the grain scratches the inside of the land where the oring seals every time the piston moves.
When I break down both brass and titanium Atomics (and every other open piston reg, for that matter, I frequently have to dress out scratches in the land with micromesh to help sealing after rebuild.
If you seal them, there's an inch of grease between the holes and the piston head. Sand and salt don't have a chance of reaching it. I'm in my second year with my first stage, and since I do regular IP checks as part of my pre-dive, I don't plan to do my titanium reg for maybe three years. What for? I'll do my brass one at two years, just to clean out whatever has crept below the seal. But the interior? I expect it to be pristine.
I use Tribolube 71, by the way, since it has a much lower evaporative rate than Christolube MCG-111.

Yes, the diaphragm guys have a point about the beauty of their sealed systems. In my mind, Atomic has done it right, and Scubapro should have done the same with the Mk25. Re: your comment "that just makes me nervous", I get nervous thinking about the diaphragm that has been flexing away for two years. But a sealed piston? It's just too simple to fail. If the IP locks up quickly, and has maybe 1psi creep when I leave it pressurized overnight, I know my system is good to go. The lifespan of greased Viton is forever, so the only thing to fail is the metal filter which is regularly exposed to damp salt air when you disconnect. Easy to see excessive drawdown of the IP when you breathe in hard, if you've made a record of your post-service values, if the metal filter gets clogged.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

And there has been a great loss in durability...not that I am likely to be around to see it but I seriously doubt there will be Atomic or any other current regulator still diving 40 or 50 years from now like the ones from the 60s and 70s do now.

I see you've never met an Atomic ST1 first stage, nor one of their cave ring upgrades for the second stage. The jury is still out IMO regarding the polymer second stage case and the choice for thermally-conductive but less corrosion-proof brass for the M1 valve tube, but I have no doubts that my tweaked ST1/M1 rigs will last me the rest of my diving career.

Does anyone have the z3? Is getting the sealed version worth it if i live in South Florida and do all my diving in warm water? If it is less prone to corrosion, then yes, it is.
The b2 looks cool too, with the swivel 1st stage. It also has a different 2nd internal. Not sure the swivel makes of breaks the deal on the 1st stage (but a must have on the second.)

Have any of you actually ran the reg for two solid years without a service? that just makes me nervous. It's like the new outboard motors. One of them claim you can run hundreds of hours without a service- but try budging lower unit bolts that have been soaked with saltwater for that long!

I'm going to take the opposite position on sealing for warm, openwater ocean diving: leave them unsealed. It makes completely rinsing out the ambient chamber much easier, which is going to be the number one source of problems in the first stage. If you're dealing with environments with cold water and/or a lot of particulates (includes shore diving), then sealing is a necessary evil.

I have one ST1 yoke first stage that hasn't seen a service in going on 4 years now; its IP is still rock solid, so it probably won't see one any time soon. My M1 first and second stages are all close to or over the 2 year mark as well, all are still working fine and show no signs of IP creep, corrosion/water intrusion, or seat wear. The fact that after each and every day of diving I soak them in warm fresh water for several hours/overnight while pressurized and the second stage taken apart probably has something to do with it. As may storing with the cracking pressure adjustment all the way out, though I can't say for sure that's necessary given the seat saver wave washer.

 

[halocline]

I wouldn't go to any lengths with the sealed ambient chamber unless you're diving in very cold or very silty water. If you soak your reg after use in salt water, it's not necessary. It certainly doesn't hurt anything, but it does add expense at rebuild time, and if the chamber is not completely filled, salt water gets trapped in the chamber. I think the stuff tribolube recommends for packing ambient chambers is "66" not "71" but I think that's mostly due to cost. 71 is a lot more expensive.

 

[Luis H]

Yes, the diaphragm guys have a point about the beauty of their sealed systems. In my mind, Atomic has done it right, and Scubapro should have done the same with the Mk25. Re: your comment "that just makes me nervous", I get nervous thinking about the diaphragm that has been flexing away for two years. But a sealed piston? It's just too simple to fail. If the IP locks up quickly, and has maybe 1psi creep when I leave it pressurized overnight, I know my system is good to go. The lifespan of greased Viton is forever, so the only thing to fail is the metal filter which is regularly exposed to damp salt air when you disconnect. Easy to see excessive drawdown of the IP when you breathe in hard, if you've made a record of your post-service values, if the metal filter gets clogged.

Really…

You don’t have anything to worry about with the flexing of a good diaphragm first stage. I have open plenty of Conshelf first stages that have never been serviced and after 40+ years the diaphragm was still flexible and holding perfectly good pressure.

Keep in mind that all industrial pressure regulators are diaphragm type. Many work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for decades without been replaced (some are in very hard industrial or marine environment). Depending on the process some of them may see many more cycles per minute than the highest possible breathing rate. We are not talking about regulators that get used on the weekends for a few hours.


I only service my regulators when they need it. Most of them have not been serviced in over 5 years (some more like 10 years). A couple of them have hundreds of dives without service.

If there is any sign of corrosion in the inlet filter, any IP creep, or any other sign of even minute leak, then I consider servicing.

I do occasionally replace the second stage seat. That is the only part that tends to receive some wear (as a function of time) even if it is one of my spare regulators.

Have any of you actually ran the reg for two solid years without a service? that just makes me nervous. It's like the new outboard motors. One of them claim you can run hundreds of hours without a service- but try budging lower unit bolts that have been soaked with saltwater for that long!

The regular service/ overhaul schedule that is heavily promoted by the (marketing departments) of the scuba industry goes totally against a basic engineering principle:
“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”

Unless a regulator has been flooded or abused, the yearly (or every other year) complete overhaul is not only un-necessary, it actually adds: extra wear, the potential for human error, and new parts that have not been tested (and could be defective).

The term “infant mortality” is a common engineering term describing the higher probability of machinery malfunctions that occur when equipment is new or right after major service. Sometimes it is caused by human error, but it is often caused by defects on new parts or bad interaction of parts that need to break in together.

That is the reason for the expression: “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.


Equipment needs regular maintenance, protection from corrosion, and some equipment needs regular lubrication (or lubrication change, as in internal combustion engines), but complete tear down and rebuilt for something that receives so few cycles a year is just not reasonable.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Really…

You don’t have anything to worry about with the flexing of a good diaphragm first stage. I have open plenty of Conshelf first stages that have never been serviced and after 40+ years the diaphragm was still flexible and holding perfectly good pressure.

Keep in mind that all industrial pressure regulators are diaphragm type. Many work 24 a day, 7 days a week for decades without been replaced (some are in very hard industrial or marine environment). Depending on the process some of them may see many more cycles per minute than the highest possible breathing rate. We are not talking about regulators that get used on the weekends for a few hours.


I only service my regulators when they need it. Most of them have not been serviced in over 5 years (some more like 10 years). A couple of them have hundreds of dives without service.

If there is any sign of corrosion in the inlet filter, any IP creep, or any other sign of even minute leak, then I consider servicing.

I do occasionally replace the second stage seat. That is the only part that tends to receive some wear (as a function of time) even if it is one of my spare regulators.





The regular service/ overhaul that is heavily promoted by the (marketing departments) of the scuba industry goes totally against a basic engineering principle:
“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”

Unless a regulator has been flooded or abused, the yearly (or every other year) complete overhaul is not only un-necessary, it actually adds extra wear, the potential for human error, and new parts that have not been tested (and could be defective).

The term “infant mortality” is a common engineering term describing the higher probability of machinery malfunctions that occur when equipment is new or right after major service. Sometimes it is caused by human error, but it is often caused by defects on new parts or bad interaction of parts that need to break in together.

That is the reason for the expression: “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.


Equipment needs regular maintenance, protection from corrosion, and some equipment needs regular lubrication (or lubrication change, as in internal combustion engines), but complete tear down and rebuilt for something that receives so few cycles a year is just not reasonable.

Very true.
Every time a regulator is torn down and threads are turned and re torqued adds wear and tear way beyond what just normal use causes.
A heavy handed tech can cause a reg to fatigue way before it's time.

 

[keyshunter]

Have any of you actually ran the reg for two solid years without a service? that just makes me nervous. It's like the new outboard motors. One of them claim you can run hundreds of hours without a service- but try budging lower unit bolts that have been soaked with saltwater for that long!

Although I dive diaphragm regs, I do know several people who dive piston regs for that period and considerably longer without service. With reasonable care, there is no reason why a piston reg will not go at least 2 years between services.

Not really a good comparison with regulators, but I suppose you are talking about the Evinrude Etec whose manufacturer recommends a 3 year service interval. This may work okay, but I believe (as do many experienced salt water outboard owners) that one should at least pull and grease the lower unit bolts and the prop shaft annually.

 

[Couv]

...... but I suppose you are talking about the Evinrude Etec ....

If you had a Long Shaft Johnson you wouldn't need no Evinrude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDcBtILky0g

 

[ams511]

Not really a good comparison with regulators, but I suppose you are talking about the Evinrude Etec whose manufacturer recommends a 3 year service interval. This may work okay, but I believe (as do many experienced salt water outboard owners) that one should at least pull and grease the lower unit bolts and the prop shaft annually.

A boat and a regulator is not a good comparison because you generally don't soak a boat after salt water use and the boat sits in the water for an extended time.

For some reason (don't ask me why), I like to purchase used regulators on eBay. I find the problem regs from a dis-assembly standpoint are usually the ones that look really good or the ones that look really bad. The average looking reg is never a problem. Some DIYs advocate lubricating some of the connections because the manufacturers don't use enough lube. It was speculated that manufacturers cut down on the amount of lube used during assembly because of concern over oxygen use.

If you take care of your regulator and understand the warning signs it can last a long time before rebuilds.