AQUALUNG and LEISUREPRO

[Jim Lapenta]

I have related this story before but the owner of one shop I sometimes use for pool and air fills had a customer that would come in and browse. Look everything over, even try on a wetsuit and BC. He'd buy little items. Ya know the doodads that are marked up but no real money in them. Then go buy on line. And actually brought some things in for the owner to look over. Which he did. And let the guy use the pool to try them out. After the fourth or maybe even fifth time this happened the owner decided to say something the next time the guy came in. Just as he was about to the guy asked if he could send a friend up who wanted to buy a BC from a local shop. Owner said sure. Tell him to come by and left unsaid what he was going to. About a week later the guy ( a doctor) came in. Along with his wife the two other couples that certified with them. They did not like the hard sell attitude of the shop they certed with. About three hours later they walked out with six regs, six bc's, and six computers. All because he took the attitude that any customer is a good one. To top that off he did not require the six independent instructors that use the pool and pool BC's and regs, and send their students for rental gear and air fills to use anything he sold. We can use all of our own gear. He did very well. He sold the place after his others businesses demanded more time. The new owner has the same policy and myself and other instructors send him people all the time. I sell gear. I contract with him for air fills, pool time, and send students for rental gear to him and for items I don't carry. And it works very well. I have also learned that lesson. I have people calling me all the time for advice on gear they got from someone else. I don't treat them any different than the ones who are repeat customers and have spent thousands with me. Because the next time that call may be to place an order with me.
My grandfather was in business as a grocer until he retired. Same location for 34 years. I never saw him treat a customer with anything but courtesy and kindness. Even when they were bitching at him or one of the employees. I am not as calm and collected as he was. And it's harder to hold my tongue sometimes. But when I do it usually ends up very well. But that's just me.

 

[BoltSnap]

We have established that mjrob from DiVentures didn't berate, ridicule or insult his customer at all, but don't you think that he has the right to list to his customer all of the good services he has provided him and how much he bent over to take care of him and for mjrob to solicit an explanation of why the customer did what he did? Doesn't mjrob have the right to know and the obligation to his business to find out where he went wrong?

 

[redacted]

We have established that mjrob from DiVentures didn't berate, ridicule or insult his customer at all, but don't you think that he has the right to list to his customer all of the good services he has provided him and how much he bent over to take care of him and for mjrob to solicit an explanation of why the customer did what he did? Doesn't mjrob have the right to know and the obligation to his business to find out where he went wrong?

Well, it is clear to me that the customer was offended and probably felt insulted. (If someone else saw berate and ridicule in that, I would not argue the point.) What you seem to be calling "good services" and "bent over" I see as the attempt by the store staff to make a sale. And I guess the store staff has as much right to talk to the customer as the customer has to examine and discuss displayed wares.

It seems to me that he did find out where he went wrong on both that sale and future business from that customer. His price was too high and the customer either did not understand that it was open for discussion (or maybe, like you seem to suggest, it wasn't) or the customer did not get the impression that further discussion would be fruitful. And then he seems to have offended the customer sending any future business elsewhere. It is a pretty common theme in all too many dive shops.

 

[crosshairs]

I would love to buy from my LDS but the truth is, most of the time,I just cant.
My son recently bought a BC from LP for $469.00 shipped...LDS wanted $675.00...My girl bought me a watch at LP for Christmas ...$785.00..LDS wanted $1050.00....she actually bought 2 ..last year I purchased a computer from LP $625.00....LDS wanted $775.00.
so yes, I shop at my LDS..but I cant just buy what they sell.

I bought 2 HP 100 tanks from LP....no one could even come close to their price.....how is that possible when they have to pay to ship them to me?? certainly an LDS could beat that price right??..nope.saved over $200.00 by having them shipped....

3 months ago the girl wanted a new wetsuit..we went to 2 local shops..could not find one she liked that fit her (5'8" 115Lbs) and the selection was pretty limited ....drove to LP in about 55 minutes and tried on over 15 suits..she walked out with 2..for anyone who has ever been there, you know the showroom is small..but they have everything imaginable in the warehouse and they are more than happy to get it for you...they jump in the elevator and come back in minutes with whatever it is you want to see.

so yeah, it sucks that they are impacting local shops, but we are not talking about small amounts of money here..I'm not poor,but I'm not rich either and I shop for the best price and the best value....unfortunately for my local shops, they lose on both counts.

 

[BoltSnap]

Well, it is clear to me that the customer was offended and probably felt insulted. (If someone else saw berate and ridicule in that, I would not argue the point.) What you seem to be calling "good services" and "bent over" I see as the attempt by the store staff to make a sale. And I guess the store staff has as much right to talk to the customer as the customer has to examine and discuss displayed wares.

It seems to me that he did find out where he went wrong on both that sale and future business from that customer. His price was too high and the customer either did not understand that it was open for discussion (or maybe, like you seem to suggest, it wasn't) or the customer did not get the impression that further discussion would be fruitful. And then he seems to have offended the customer sending any future business elsewhere. It is a pretty common theme in all too many dive shops.

No, I see it that he spent over 10 hours educating the customer on what he needed to buy and would setup the equipment for him and even let him get used to it in their own 14' heated pool (88F) in addition to all of their high class services. The store owner explained to the client all of this at the end but the client used profane language and insulted everyone there to the point where it was very uncomfortable to people in the store especially other clients. We are dealing with a client who has very little manners in addition to short sightedness and substantial natural rudeness.

BTW, $100 isn't "very high" or even "high" when you consider all factors including setting up and testing the equipment for the client and the chance to try it all in the store's pool. This is worth a lot more than these $100 (I am not counting all of the other potential perks and special considerations the store probably has for their loyal customers).

One truth of retail business is that there are customers who aren't worth having at all. They would cause more harm to the business owner than they are worth.

 

[redacted]

No, I see it that he spent over 10 hours educating the customer on what he needed to buy and would setup the equipment for him and even let him get used to it in their own 14' heated pool (88F) in addition to all of their high class services. The store owner explained to the client all of this at the end but the client used profane language and insulted everyone there to the point where it was very uncomfortable to people in the store especially other clients. We are dealing with a client who has very little manners in addition to short sightedness and substantial natural rudeness.

BTW, $100 isn't "very high" or even "high" when you consider all factors including setting up and testing the equipment for the client and the chance to try it all in the store's pool. This is worth a lot more than these $100 (I am not counting all of the other potential perks and special considerations the store probably has for their loyal customers).

One truth of retail business is that there are customers who aren't worth having at all. They would cause more harm to the business owner than they are worth.

Yep, 10 hours of foreplay is quite an investment, but it's not like anybody was holding a gun to his head. And they both had to participate. Someone ended up with unfulfilled expectations. Both just learn to deal with it. Maybe one more date would have been more satisfying.

$100 is another regulator for me or another pair of great dives. Why spend it unnecessarily on gear. Anyone increasing the price for "dealer prep" is just ripping customers off. A dip in the pool before you buy is like a shrimp cocktail - just part of the foreplay. After the sale, it is just a test drive. Not an added cost. It can build a little confidence. Any problem found is an indication of a poor job done by the dealer (should that get any refund?).

The case you are making is pretty much one of the common problems in struggling LDSs. I can buy gear, training, and services in lots of places. A shop need to get $$ from customers. Satisfied customers bring in a lot more $$ than dissatisfied customers.

 

[BoltSnap]

Yep, 10 hours of foreplay is quite an investment, but it's not like anybody was holding a gun to his head. And they both had to participate. Someone ended up with unfulfilled expectations. Both just learn to deal with it. Maybe one more date would have been more satisfying.

$100 is another regulator for me or another pair of great dives. Why spend it unnecessarily on gear. Anyone increasing the price for "dealer prep" is just ripping customers off. A dip in the pool before you buy is like a shrimp cocktail - just part of the foreplay. After the sale, it is just a test drive. Not an added cost. It can build a little confidence. Any problem found is an indication of a poor job done by the dealer (should that get any refund?).

The case you are making is pretty much one of the common problems in struggling LDSs. I can buy gear, training, and services in lots of places. A shop need to get $$ from customers. Satisfied customers bring in a lot more $$ than dissatisfied customers.

I am sorta lost in the implications of sexual fantasies you seem to have but I'll try.

You still think that the potential client had any intentions of buying there. He didn't give a marble and all he was interested in was to get the information he needed to decide what to buy that he couldn't get from the online place. I know that it is difficult for you accept or even imagine (perhaps because it would apply to you but you don't want to admit it), but there are people like that.

I wonder about what type of regulator you can buy for $100 these days, I don't think that it exists at all (assuming buying new and something that is brand name). Jumping in the pool under a dive professional's supervision with the brand new equipment that was never used before and learning how to use and getting used to it before making any real dive with it in open water conditions, isn't only "nice" or "cocktail'ish" it is prudent and would avoid wasting time when on a trip away from home or an instructor. This time when on a dive trip far away from home or even on a local charter dive boat would cost more than $100 for sure. Heck, I get with my own old and tested equipment in the pool or any type of confined water locally before I go on any type of dive trip to make sure that all is a go and that I am less likely to have any type of issues with it while on my trip let alone brand new equipment that I have NEVER dove with or tried it before in the water.

All this is in total contrast to the "stuff" he got in a box from UPS un-assembled, untested and untried!!! You seem to forget that he didn't have ANY of this type of service from his online store. You also forget (probably intentionally ignore) that the local dive store with nice warm, clean pool would be happy to have him come in anytime he wishes to "play" with his equipment and review its use before he goes on a dive trip anytime in the future and all done locally under controlled conditions. His access to the pool isn't restricted to just one time when he first buys his gear. Try to get this time in your local YMCA pool.

I am sure that you speak from your vast experience on the OTHER side of the counter at a dive center. I am sure you sat their in their chair and had to deal with all of the issues before you casually made your comments here.

 

[BVickery]

I have bought, new (internet and LDS) as well as used (classifieds here).

As stated, Value is much more than price. I had the choice of going to a Dive Shop about 30mins away or Order something online and have ti shipped to me. I talked with the shop and through value, they not only got the sale but one of the things they added was a small discount on instruction in the pool (About $100 for 1 on 1). His sale, and he was VERY friendly about it, was not only can he get me the item I needed quicker (he was an authorized dealer and actually had an order being readied for shipment) he said that if I went with them they would either spend about 10 mins in the pool to show me how to use the new harness properly or, spend about $100 and I can have a full 1 on 1 to review skills prior to OW Cert Dives, and actually get some muscle memory in for the new skill. So even though he couldn't really take much off on the price for the belt, he did make it up by knocking of the difference of an online price and then some with instruction.

When I got there, and fitted, I had bit more of a gut than anticipated and he took the harness and went upstairs and extended the waist belt area a bit for proper and comfortable fit. This was done for no charge.

I have a love/hate relationship with my true LDS. Good prices, but the CS isn't exactly stellar. When I was going for OWC and tried to solve the issues I had in the pool session's they were not exactly helpful in solutions to what gear I needed (and this was strictly gear issue - no hips to really balance weight belt off of).

 

[redacted]

I am sorta lost in the implications of sexual fantasies you seem to have but I'll try.

Yeah, I was afraid that might have been a bit over your head.

You still think that the potential client had any intentions of buying there. He didn't give a marble and all he was interested in was to get the information he needed to decide what to buy that he couldn't get from the online place. I know that it is difficult for you accept or even imagine (perhaps because it would apply to you but you don't want to admit it), but there are people like that.

Yes, I think most new divers are looking to buy from the shop that does their training. It is part of that training. I did not discover other sources until my shop screwed up the first annual service. That was quite some time ago and I'm sure new divers are a bit more knowledgeable about such things today. But I do believe that few new divers realize that LDSs are rarely price competitive with online sources. But they seem to learn that quickly if they shop around a bit.

I wonder about what type of regulator you can buy for $100 these days, I don't think that it exists at all (assuming buying new and something that is brand name). Jumping in the pool under a dive professional's supervision with the brand new equipment that was never used before and learning how to use and getting used to it before making any real dive with it in open water conditions, isn't only "nice" or "cocktail'ish" it is prudent and would avoid wasting time when on a trip away from home or an instructor. This time when on a dive trip far away from home or even on a local charter dive boat would cost more than $100 for sure. Heck, I get with my own old and tested equipment in the pool or any type of confined water locally before I go on any type of dive trip to make sure that all is a go and that I am less likely to have any type of issues with it while on my trip let alone brand new equipment that I have NEVER dove with or tried it before in the water.

I have not seen many new regulator that are even close to being worth the price tag they carry. It has been quite some time since I purchased a new regulator. And , you are right, it was online at about half the USA retail price. Now, it is pretty hard to beat the value of older regulators that used to be available for $25 to $30 per stage. I did spend a little less than $100 on my last purchase - and original Scubapro Pilot. New regulators should be re3ady to go straight from the manufacturer. But I agree that it is foolish to take an untested rig on an dive trip. I just don't believe that a certified diver, even one newly certified, needs a "dive professional" to hold his hand for such a test.

All this is in total contrast to the "stuff" he got in a box from UPS un-assembled, untested and untried!!! You seem to forget that he didn't have ANY of this type of service from his online store. You also forget (probably intentionally ignore) that the local dive store with nice warm, clean pool would be happy to have him come in anytime he wishes to "play" with his equipment and review its use before he goes on a dive trip anytime in the future and all done locally under controlled conditions. His access to the pool isn't restricted to just one time when he first buys his gear. Try to get this time in your local YMCA pool.

Maybe he should have dealt with an online shop like Scubatoys rather than LP. While LDS pools may be nice, I have never found one to be necessary (or very clean). On the rare occasion I wanted to use a local public pool (just a bit cleaner than the LDS), I had no access problem.

I am sure that you speak from your vast experience on the OTHER side of the counter at a dive center. I am sure you sat their in their chair and had to deal with all of the issues before you casually made your comments here.

No, you are right. I am just a customer. While I have had quite a few satisfactory experiences with local shops, I have also had a number of disappointments. High prices, poor service, minimal stockage, unqualified staff, and short fills.

 

[BoltSnap]

I just don't believe that a certified diver, even one newly certified, needs a "dive professional" to hold his hand for such a test.

It isn't just a test, it is getting used to it and learning how to use it, adjust it, etc. A more experienced professional would certainly help you do it right in less time.

I was afraid that might have been a bit over your head.

It is more like irrelevant and inappropriate.

I have not seen many new regulator that are even close to being worth the price tag they carry. It has been quite some time since I purchased a new regulator. And , you are right, it was online at about half the USA retail price. Now, it is pretty hard to beat the value of older regulators that used to be available for $25 to $30 per stage. I did spend a little less than $100 on my last purchase - and original Scubapro Pilot.

This is a matter of taste and personality just like you may like vanilla and I like chocolate. I never buy anything used in scuba except one time I bought lightly used steel tanks of certain capacity that were very difficult to find new where I lived. Other than this instance, I never bought anything used since I started diving in the very early seventies.

Maybe he should have dealt with an online shop like Scubatoys rather than LP.

So you agree then that not all online scuba stores are the same nor are they always better than LDS.

While LDS pools may be nice, I have never found one to be necessary (or very clean). On the rare occasion I wanted to use a local public pool (just a bit cleaner than the LDS), I had no access problem.

You may not thinks so but my clients who only dove once or twice a year on their vacation in the Caymans or in other warmer destinations love it and appreciate it very much. It would be almost impossible to use a public pool to test dive equipment with dive professional right there at the side of the pool as when doing it through an LDS. I even have much more experienced divers take advantage of this "perk" to my loyal clients. They never bothered to run around the county trying to find a public pool that would let them do it. Heck, even the ones that had their own "nice" pool still came to our pool because they wanted a dive professional to be there and give them hints on how to do what they wanted to do better or more efficiently.