AOW vs GUE Fundamentals

[Belzelbub]

The straightforward PADI path of OW, AOW, selected specialties, and Rescue works just fine if one chooses, or is lucky enough to end up with, good instructors. I was fortunate to have good instructors. From threads like this one, it appears there are many lower quality teachers out there, a shame.

Indeed there are. This is really the reason all those alternate PADI acronyms exist. It's not due to the organization, but rather the instructors.

My first OW cert was through PADI, though I'm fairly certain it didn't meet PADI standards, even back in 1990. This was prior to the online courses, so all book work was done in the classroom. I believe this was over 3 (maybe 4) classes. The shop didn't do pool classes, so all practical skills were to be covered on two dives. One freshwater spring dive, and one saltwater dive. Due to a scheduling conflict, I only completed the saltwater dive. And still got my cert.

Notice I didn't call that saltwater dive an ocean dive? There's a reason for that. This was really just a pool dive in limited visibility. Shore dive to around 10' in murky Tampa Bay practicing the usual skills. No swimming component other than having to swim the few yards to the spot.

I didn't dive for the next few years, and really didn't feel comfortable with it. So, I took another OW course at UF. This was a complete contradiction to my first course. The course was taught over a semester. There was a 1 hour lecture each week along with two lab courses. The lecture held around 150 students, and the labs had maybe 10-15 students and at least 2 instructors. First 30 minutes or so was class work going over the lecture and reading in greater detail. The remaining 90 minutes were spent in the pool. First starting with mask, fins, and snorkel. Later moving on to full gear. After the completion of the semester, checkout dives were done in the Keys. C-Cards offered were YMCA, with NAUI and CMAS options. At the end of the class, I'm pretty sure that everyone who made an effort was pretty comfortable in the water. Those who didn't probably dropped the course. Course was probably taken by a bunch of students as an easy A, but the lead instructor told everyone on day 1 that this was not actually an easy A course. A "B" was possible with some level of effort, but you had to put in a bit more effort to get an A.

I'm sure that most OW classes are somewhere between those two extremes, but those were my experiences.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I would argue that you should take the Fundamentals course and forget AOW (unless you have a very highly recommend instructor available). Part of what you will learn in th Fundamentals course is single tank diving in deeper water is not very smart. It will give you the tools to transition into a double tank setup to do 100' dives for up to 30 minuets. 77.5 cf (single AL80) with 2-4 cf consumed at a depth of 100' doesn't leave much time before needing to turn the dive with enough gas to get you and your buddy up to the surface safely in an emergency.

If you show up to the boat looking the part, your not going to be turned away. Heck, I show my OW card to most charter captains when diving with multiple stages and deco bottles.

Bottom line. Make an informed choice and interview the person who you are considering taking a course with. Get their take on gas calculations (Min Gas, Rock Bottom, 1/2's, 1/3rds, all usable). These are important calculations that should be used on EVERY dive. Will your next instructor be able to cover these bases? Good luck, diving is supposed to be fun, not about arguing over what's best over the internet.

Fair argument, but one can't typically "show up to the boat looking the part" because the dive op wants to see that AOW card at the time you sign the waiver and pay your money--while your gear is probably still in your car. At least it's that way in the FL Keys. They get a lot of vacation divers, and they DO seem to want to see an AOW card for some of the wreck trips.

 

[shoredivr]

I think there have been different versions of aow. Some say they learned a lot and really spent time in skills, and some (myself included) saw and instructor who just phoned it in, and found the "manual" to be very superficial in coverage and not worth the $$. Part of it may be the instructor, sure, but it sounds to me like some classes in the past were really designed to hone skills, while the current PADI aow doesn't necessarily offer that, but rather just a sampler of specialty classes to draw the diver in for more $$$. After my aow, I went to a tech instructor and he was shocked that I had an aow card without having ever done a night dive. He thought night dives teach certain fundamental skills that (he thought) were required for aow. I think the "advanced" in the name is an almost criminally ignorant misnomer.

For some perspective, here are some highlights from my worthless AOW class:

1. "Peak performance buoyancy" 1 dive. Depth about 12'. Visibility, 3-5'. Shore dive. We spent 15 minutes, in waves, trying to figure out how much weight we should be wearing. Then we swam together in a line parallel the shore, about 30' then turned around, losing a member of our group, then surfaced, regrouped, Done.

2. "Deep dive" 1 dive. Depth 85'. Visibility 30-40'. We 6 students went down with 1 instructor, upon making it to the wreck at 85', one student was already down to his turn pressure and was sent back up by himself. The other 5 of us swam along the wreck for 30', turned back, ascend. No task to try like in the book, no colored sheets, no lights, and certainly no discussion of gas management.

3. "Wreck dive". Exactly the same as above, same location. This time one student had a calf cramp and decided to sit out, upset that he wouldn't get enough (5) dives for his aow card.

4. "Navigation". Shore dive. Depth 20' visibility 40'. This one wasn't too bad. Each of us were sent off to swim a square. Except for the fact that we were all sent off alone, it was a good practice dive.

5. "Search and recovery" at same location as #4 after surface interval. We were looking for the buoy we saw from the shore. Diver who'd missed the wreck dive is instructed to also "appreciate the fish" and this dive would count as 2 dives, a search and recovery dive and an underwater naturalist dive. We went in together, found the buoy, and then everyone went their own ways, essentially turning the whole thing into a first solo dive for everyone except me and the buddy I wouldn't let get away from me. the guy with the cramp earlier wanders up the shore and freaks out in the waves, thinks he's drowning in 4' water (he's easily 6'5") and calls his dive early (still gets his "2 dives" though). Another one keeps losing the weight from his BC and making uncontrolled ascents.

What did I learn from my aow class? Seek out world class instructors, don't buy Padi card-classes. The point should really be, that the AOW card is just that, a card, and does not necessarily mean anything good about your skills. You can try to find a good instructor, that should make a difference, but signing up for a padi class seems like a roll of the dice to me, wheras sure, sounds like some gue guys are a little intense and zealots for their system, but I've never heard that a gue class is anything but transformative.

In 1998, I had an excellent experience with PADI AOW. The deep dive was to 90 ft, with puzzle solving, light changes, air filled pop bottle getting crushed; the night dive, wreck dive, boat dive had clearly defined goals. The navigation dive had three shapes to navigate, square, triangle, rectangle.
I felt I got my money's worth, with the exception of gas planning, which in 1998 was rudimentary lol.

 

[tomfcrist]

At least it's that way in the FL Keys. They get a lot of vacation divers, and they DO seem to want to see an AOW card for some of the wreck trips.

It's all about liability. In the Keys they want AOW or you don't go. In NC there are some ops that won't take you anywhere that you don't have a card saying you should be there...other in NC will not blink an eye about taking an OW diver with sufficient experience to the AOW depth wrecks....especially if the diver was certified prior to the 80's. If someone decides not to get AOW, they either need to find a way to get a higher level cert(tech) or risk being turned away at the dock.
There are some ops that specifically state when they take your money(and reservation) that if you show up without the proper documentation(proper level cert, logbook), they will not let you on the boat...and you won't get your money back.

 

[drrich2]

At least it's that way in the FL Keys. They get a lot of vacation divers, and they DO seem to want to see an AOW card for some of the wreck trips.

I saw 2 guys on a morning boat trip out of Key Largo not get to dive because they didn't have AOW, just OW, and while the Captain was willing to take a look at their log books, they weren't packing those, either. Log books get mentioned on the forum fairly often, but I seldom see them aside from new divers.

Richard.

 

[AdivingBel]

I saw 2 guys on a morning boat trip out of Key Largo not get to dive because they didn't have AOW, just OW, and while the Captain was willing to take a look at their log books, they weren't packing those, either. Log books get mentioned on the forum fairly often, but I seldom see them aside from new divers.

Richard.

Yep. If you dive travel without an AOW or recognized equivalent and want to do "those" dives, you better bring your logbook and tap shoes. Otherwise you risk being left behind or you'll be required to hire a guide (which isn't necessarily a bad thing other than being "required" to). Either is a hassle I don't want after paying for an expensive dive trip. Rules of the road as they currently stand. You can always call ahead and work it out in advance, but if you have to change ops on the fly, you're right back where you started. Hassle.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I saw 2 guys on a morning boat trip out of Key Largo not get to dive because they didn't have AOW, just OW, and while the Captain was willing to take a look at their log books, they weren't packing those, either. Log books get mentioned on the forum fairly often, but I seldom see them aside from new divers.

It would be interesting to hear from some of the charter captains/owners here on SB as to whether they would accept a GUE Fundamentals card (or for that matter, other intro-to-tech sorta courses) in lieu of an AOW card for the trips for which they normally require an AOW card. Surely in Florida at least, there are few dive ops that still don't know what GUE is about.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I saw 2 guys on a morning boat trip out of Key Largo not get to dive because they didn't have AOW, just OW, and while the Captain was willing to take a look at their log books, they weren't packing those, either. Log books get mentioned on the forum fairly often, but I seldom see them aside from new divers.

Richard.

I travel frequently for work. I try to dive while away on these trips, depending on location.
Over the past couple of years I have gotten in the habit of taking pictures of the most recent pages from my log book. 4 to 6 pages.

I email them to myself. That way I can always search my inbox from just about any computer.

I've been asked before when making reservations to provide a log book. Being able to email recent pages has come in handy.
I will probably store them in drop box next time, but I'm lazy so emailing from my phone prior to a work trip has become my habit.

Crude, but it has proven helpful.

Back on topic, an AOW card is going to be asked for from many operators.
I would suggest to anyone.....just take an AOW course with someone that's squared away.

Most divers are quite capable of using their own judgement in making that determination.

As an alternative question: Why would one NOT want to pursue the training and have an AOW card?
It is what numerous dive operator are going to ask for anyway.

That being said....I know what the Fundamentals card conveys.
Unfortunately I don't think a majority of shop employees have ever seen one.

Cheers,
Mitch

 

[Centrals]

I saw 2 guys on a morning boat trip out of Key Largo not get to dive because they didn't have AOW, just OW, and while the Captain was willing to take a look at their log books, they weren't packing those, either. Log books get mentioned on the forum fairly often, but I seldom see them aside from new divers.
Richard.

I pack the C card and the log book on every diving trip. Yes, I still logged the dive after all these years(1996).
All dive operators that I had came across in SE Asia would demand to see the card. No card, no dive as simple as that.
OW means 18m, AOW means 30m and Deep Speciality means 40m. Of course there are exceptions and those tended to be small operators.

 

[scubadada]

I would argue that you should take the Fundamentals course and forget AOW (unless you have a very highly recommend instructor available). Part of what you will learn in th Fundamentals course is single tank diving in deeper water is not very smart. It will give you the tools to transition into a double tank setup to do 100' dives for up to 30 minuets. 77.5 cf (single AL80) with 2-4 cf consumed at a depth of 100' doesn't leave much time before needing to turn the dive with enough gas to get you and your buddy up to the surface safely in an emergency.

If you show up to the boat looking the part, your not going to be turned away. Heck, I show my OW card to most charter captains when diving with multiple stages and deco bottles.

Bottom line. Make an informed choice and interview the person who you are considering taking a course with. Get their take on gas calculations (Min Gas, Rock Bottom, 1/2's, 1/3rds, all usable). These are important calculations that should be used on EVERY dive. Will your next instructor be able to cover these bases? Good luck, diving is supposed to be fun, not about arguing over what's best over the internet.

You GUE folks are quite conservative. My SRMV is about 0.35 cu ft per minute. A 100 foot dive with the NDL of 30 minutes using 32% nitrox (DSAT), takes me a little under 50 cu ft of gas with a normal descent, and a normal ascent with a safety stop.