AOW Class Max Depth 65 ft. ?????

[parzdiver]

Sam - after the class, we can schedule some diving with "Ann" and get her out to the deep attractions. We can even bring some padlocks and puzzles along. She will have her AOW at that point, so this will just be for fun.

 

[redacted]

My most regular training activity is dive with AOW students. We always do search and recovery, and it requires no special equipment. Our deep dive is to an altitude adjusted depth of up to 80 feet, but we barely make 60 feet actual. However, given conditions (dark, cold, limited vis, altitufe factor ( about 500 feet above sea level), it is a great training dive. I stress three things on every AOW dive, in addition to the task at hand. First is buoyancy control. Second, compass work. Third, dive planning and execution of the dive plan. Our second day of diving usually starts with me saying, "Welcome back. Today you all have to be better divers to successfully complete this course." I ramp up for the deep dive (first of the day) and then we spend a lot of time on search and recovery, having done navigation patterns and work as part of our first day's dives. The skill levels for AOW students are vary all over the board. Some students have come right from their open water class ( something I do not recommend) and other have up to 100 "real dives" in their resume. AT my LDS we try to take AOW out of the "experience" category and into the "training" category. When selecting a shop and instructor to take AOW, I think the best input is to talk to other people, and find out their experience. Completion of the AOW class should in fact result in you being a better diver, not just carrying a different card. Sadly, some shops/instructors just want to get through it. This thread points that out. It's not about the card, its about the competence the class should bring. You are right to expect that.
DivemasterDennis scubasnobs.com

So, your AOW course deep dive does not expose the student to any opportunity to experience narcosis and that is OK!!!!

 

[Diver0001]

I am not sure if I'm posting in the right forum so Mods feel free to move if there is a more appropriate forum.

I am bothered by a PM exchange between a SBer, who I will call Ann (not real name), and I. Ann knows I am posting about our PM exchange and I have her permission to do so.

This weekend, Ann is taking AOW and was informed by her instructor that their deep dive would be 65 ft. in the local quarry. With Irene's recent visit, max depth in quarry is now 110 ft. Her specialty dives will be navigation, deep, buoyancy, wreck and naturalist. Ann wanted Search & Recovery as a specialty dive but it was not offered as an option. When Ann asked why the deep dive was only to 65 ft, the instructor said it's too far a swim to get to the really deep spots.

Ann called the LDS and spoke to the shop owner who said they go to 65 ft because it doesn't make a difference really for what they are doing. Ann asked about S&R as a specialty dive but owner said they choose the dives that make the most sense and are the most convenient for them and for the student. Yes, owner said, "for them" first.

The class is paid for in full. Ann plans to go through with the class.. She realizes after our PM exchanges that she will think twice in the future and ask more questions before signing up for any more classes with this particular LDS.

For my AOW, I remember going to 90s/100s ft and being handed a slate by the instructor to do math and puzzles at depth. My specialty dive option list was not limited by what was convenient to the LDS. I can't help think that the LDS is dong the bare minimum requirements for Ann's class.

Curious what is your opinion on how this LDS is handling Ann's AOW class?

Without knowing local conditions it's hard to judge why they made certain decisions but I will say this:

- first of all, making a "deep" dive to 65ft is inappropriate, imo. It is allowed by standards and I know some instructors do that but I'm not in favor of it. I have two sites where I like to do the deep dive. one is 80ft deep and one is a little over 90ft deep and on a wreck. Personally I don't think you can make certain things clear in an experiential way by not going to depth during those dives (ordinarily I also do at least 2 deep dives with students during AOW because one is, imho, completely inadequate). One of the things that's hard to make clear to students if you don't actually make the dive is how long it actually takes to ascend from a deep dive, especially if you're following the bottom. Also some elements of gas planning and buoyancy can be different and it's nice if the diver gets to feel a bit of narcosis at least once before you send them out to do it themselves. Finally, I think it's important for people's confidence (and safety) to make their first excursions to those depths with some help. Taking a diver to 65 ft (once) and then certifying them to dive to 100ft with a buddy is selling the student short in more ways than one, if you ask me.

That said, their conditions may exclude diving to the deep part of the quarry so there may be reasons they made this decision that override what I just said.

- secondly, naturalist can be an excellent element for the AOW or a cop-out to save time depending on the interests and expertise of the instructors. I don't do naturalist because I'm not good at at at all (I get a colleague to do that dive for me if someone wants it) but I love doing the wreck dives and the S&R dive. There's no reason to not swap out naturalist for S&R unless the shop simply doesn't have an instructor who is qualified to do the dive. In that sense, what the shop said (essentially) that they work from their own strong points can be a valid argument depending on what the shop has to work with.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

I think a solid education on deep diving, with a 65' max depth would be far superior to the typical anemic deep specialty having a 100' max.

Ideally, a deep specialty would have an emphasis on planning the dive, especially gas planning. Buoyancy control, ascents, themoclines, situational awareness.... all these things can be taught and evaluated without exceeding 3ATA. Prior to OW, I'd want to do a pool session to evaluate skills if I wasn't familiar with the student.

I disagree with this in part. Yes, depth alone does not define the quality of the deep dive. Howver, depth is a big psychological issue with a lot of new divers and if you don't really take them a step deeper then, yes, you can teach them the skills but you don't address the psychological element or certain experiential necessities like seeing first hand how long it takes to ascend.... it's also about getting a feeling for the "scale" of things.... Some students are obviously less worried about this than others. Most students are happy to go to 80ft but I've had the odd one that really insisted on touching down at 100ft. I think as an instructor you (and I know you, of all people, agree with me, Dave) must first look to the needs of the students and addressing psychological issues is part of that. I wouldn't be confident that I did the job required of me if I did the deep dive at 65ft. YYMV.

If the instruction consists of personal accounts of narcosis and repeated warnings to "just follow your computer", followed by a narcosis evaluation at 65', I'm sure you know my opinion of that.

R..

 

[ianr33]

Not sure what all the fuss is about.

I only went to 135 feet om my Trimix course.

It's within standards...............................

 

[gypsyjim]

I believe the fuss was all about the impression that the instructor involved was not particularly interested in doing much more than stamp a pass

 

[doctormike]

Not to blow her cover, but "Ann" is an excellent diver, with whom I have done several dives (including northeast ocean dives) to nearly twice that depth. I do recognize the importance of training, but I'm not sure I really get the value of the AOW card for the card's sake, if you just do the bare minimum.

Yes, you might get a great instructor who would teach you a lot, but it seems that it is not always the case. I have been on about a half dozen different dive boats in the NYC area, and I have never been asked for my AOW card. Perhaps this policy may vary from place to place...

 

[Tigerman]

At least they did a dive. For my AOW deep dive specialty, the instructor flipped through my logbook after asking me about my deep dive experience (frequently to 70+, some 100' and one 120') so he didn't bother about doing the deep dive. All signed off, AOW card, class fee in the bank.

Now that's diving instruction! (sarcasm)

To be the devils advocate here, there is various angencies with misc standards that allow you to sign off on specialties if you have done x number of the specific type of dive. The question then of course becomes wether or not you knew what you where doing or not and wether you want to push for doing the dive, especially if you paid for it..

 

[freewillie]

I'm really enjoying this thread. I just signed up for AOW last week and have scheduled my dives including deep dives for next month.

PADI book defines "deep" as any dive between 60 ft to 100 ft but absolutely no deeper 130 ft.

To me "deep" is at least 80 or more. I am scheduled for a dive at the Yukon in San Diego which is just over 100 ft deep. Personally, I would not be happy doing a "deep" dive at 65 ft, as I've already been as deep 75 ft with just OW cert.

Also goes back to what does you're training mean in general about your skills. Technically, if you are well trained you should be able to plan and execute a deep dive to at least 130 ft. But if you've only gone to 65 feet how comfortable would you be on your first dive as AOW deep diver to 130 ft with another novice? Do you actually feel like an advanced diver with just your certification dives? Or do you feel comfortable signing up for a deep dive but making sure you have other experienced divers to dive with?

After multiple dives, then you can be the "experienced" one!

 

[*dave*]

I'm not saying there is little value in doing the final checkout in the 100' range, but I've seen more than a few divers holding deep certs, yet lacking the knowledge or ability to plan or execute even a simple dive with anything resembling proficiency. I could speculate on their training, but I don't need to go any further than to imagine their deep specialty was as poor as my initial training. Based on my personal experience, those of others I've met and the countless stories on SB, it seems many mainstream deep courses are lacking in real substance.

Shouldn't a person who is certified for deep dives be able to hold depth in a hover, share gas at depth, perform a controlled blue water ascent, shoot a DSMB, plan and manage their gas and hold a stop? That's a partial list of skills I see lacking in divers I know to be deep certified. There are some instructors doing great things with the deep specialty, but I'm getting the feeling that is not the norm.

I'm all for checkouts to 100', but some of the content is ran like the liability course you take before renting a jet ski: Read this, watch that, one day in 1967....., let's review....



There's such a great opportunity for education in the deep specialty, but by my observations, it's largely squandered.

I disagree with this in part. Yes, depth alone does not define the quality of the deep dive. Howver, depth is a big psychological issue with a lot of new divers and if you don't really take them a step deeper then, yes, you can teach them the skills but you don't address the psychological element or certain experiential necessities like seeing first hand how long it takes to ascend.... it's also about getting a feeling for the "scale" of things.... Some students are obviously less worried about this than others. Most students are happy to go to 80ft but I've had the odd one that really insisted on touching down at 100ft. I think as an instructor you (and I know you, of all people, agree with me, Dave) must first look to the needs of the students and addressing psychological issues is part of that. I wouldn't be confident that I did the job required of me if I did the deep dive at 65ft. YYMV.





R..