AOW Class Max Depth 65 ft. ?????

[Steve50]

Good to interview the shops/instructors ahead of time. Gives you a chance to learn their differences in approach and attitude.

 

[Simon-]

My students choose the 3 elective dives they want to do. I will only suggest an alternative if the ones they choose can't be done (weather, logistics etc) in the time frame they want to complete in.

More often than not, the time frame gets changed so they can do their elective dives.

Popular ones from my students, other than deep and navigation (compulsory), are wreck, DPV, night and Digital U/W Photography. I usually suggest that they also consider doing their Nitrox course in tandem. After all, they are doing dives, so it may as well be dual purpose.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I am taking NAUI AOW right now, I was talking to my instuctor the other day and he said the max that NAUI is allowed to do during a class is 80ft.

This is not correct. NAUI Standards for Advanced Scuba Diver deep dive are that the dive should not exceed 130 feet. They do not specify a minimum.

For the deep dive, I typically take the students to about 100 feet ... because this is a typical deep dive depth for many popular sites in my area. Prior to the dive we have already done gas consumption measurements, and the students must use a dive plan that I provide to calculate how much gas they will need during the dive, as well as determine their rock-bottom pressure for the maximum planned depth. Their "deep test" consists of maintaining good buddy positioning and communication at all times during the dive. At some point during their deep dive, I will "run out of air" and they will need to donate a regulator to me. This is for me to test their ability at depth to recognize and respond to a worst-case emergency. They are required to stick to the plan, and to make an ascent up a buoy line from approximately 45 feet with appropriate stops. They are expected to maintain visual contact with the line and with each other during the ascent. After the dive we calculate how much gas they actually used, compare it to what they predicted they would use, and if there is a significant difference, discuss why that might be the case.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[parzdiver]

If the quarry in question is Dutch Springs and the instructor is saying the deep parts are "too far a swim" than that instructor is seriously lazy. There are some really good options for depths beyond 65' at Dutch, such as the Army Truck and the Tanker. With the Tanker truck, you can even follow the line to it from the Student side. A very easy dive, and you'd probably hit 80-85 feet with the current water levels.

I'm wondering if this particular instructor is more concerned with the second thermocline than the distance. Possibly a warm water wuss?

I did my AOW in St. John, and max depth was 85'. No narcosis symptoms and were able to do the math problems just as fast as on the surface. When doing my deep cert, we did the math on the deck of the Duane (105') and there was some slight narcosis among the students.

 

[ScubaSteve]

My AOW was a bit of a joke (at least the PPB was a complete joke....the rest was OK). My deep dive took me to 103' at which point I had to sign my name next to that which I had signed on the surface......after three attempts where they matched, the instructor finally shook the slate during signing to make sure it was different (in lieu of obvious narcosis I suppose).

In Ann's case, I personally would be more concerned about the reasoning for avoiding deeper depths than the fact that the diver would be to 65'. To me, to avoid depth because of a little swim is ridiculous. I must assume that this dive will take place at Dutch and I would have no issue doing a surface swim at Dutch to get to depth. It is, after all, not the English Channel. Their reason seems very hoaky so I hope the instructor makes the rest of the class worthwhile to make up for the deep dive (or lack thereof).

 

[ScubaSam]

Why is Ann taking AOW? I suspect she would learn more about narcosis with a deeper dive but if 65 ft meets the training agency standards, then I guess that is all that is needed.

The more interesting wrecks in our area are done off NJ and LI boats where the Captains require AOW given the wrecks are past 90ft.

At least they did a dive. For my AOW deep dive specialty, the instructor flipped through my logbook after asking me about my deep dive experience (frequently to 70+, some 100' and one 120') so he didn't bother about doing the deep dive. All signed off, AOW card, class fee in the bank.

Now that's diving instruction! (sarcasm)

Wow, Gary, can't say I'm surprise about the lack of standard in some shops/instructors.

SS how many are in class, are the other students holding depth back, ann will not know till dive day. If she is not happy now, what makes you think ann will be happy for the course, it could get worse, does ann need card for dive trip.

I would go and tell shop and instructor you want a more experience dives at deeper depths, as you need to be able to accomplish these depths with no fear of failure when not under instruction.

I WOULD THINK THE REST OF THE CLASS WOULD BE HOAKY ALSO.

I don't know how many students are in her class.

I cringe whenever I hear divers say that they've never been narced. It belies a certain naivete about the phenomenon, which in actuality manifests at much shallower depths than 100 fsw. It probably means that they've never applied the appropriate "tests" to bring out narcosis-related cognitive deficits.

I noticed during my PADI AOW that I was slightly narced at 90'ish ft while doing the math problem/puzzle because of how slow and how long it took me to finish the puzzle at depth. I felt fine but my decisions were taking longer to form, if that makes any sense.

Ann doesn't see completion of the "advanced" class as evidence that she is now an advanced/experienced diver.

I never got the impression that she has an ego about her diving. LIke most of us, she dives for the love of diving, whether it's warm or cold water, she's there diving it.

I really think that AOW should include dives below 100'. The whole point I think is to get that experience in a more controlled environment under the supervision of an instructor. My AOW included a 75' 95' and culminated with a dive to 125' wherein we were assessed for narcosis (write name on slate, puzzles, etc.). This progression allowed me deal with my apprehension and ultimately build the confidence to expand my diving range.

I felt that way about my AOW but it seems not every shop, instructor or diver feels the same.

I might be able to help if you are in the north central US, I know a few instructors who are exceptional, keep in mind that great instructors are worth more in fees as well.Just PM me and I will see what I can do for you.

Thank you. I know a few great shops and instructors in my area. I did not know Ann was doing her AOW with this particular shop until we started PM'ing about her upcoming AOW.

AOW standards a "deep" dive can be 19m - 30m (65ft to 100ft). No shallower, no deeper.
I really fail to see any justification for doing it in the shallow range of that as you'll learn absolutely nothing. Going 1m deeper than open water is going to teach you absolutely nothing. Im a firm believer in taking a student to the maximum depth they're qualified to dive to, especially at the entry level courses like this.

The whole initial post here just sounds like a standard poor dive shop and poor instructor prepared to do the absolute minimum requires and not the slightest bit more. Interested in speed, ease and money more than actually producing a good diver. Go elsewhere!

I agree and feel the same.

Good to interview the shops/instructors ahead of time. Gives you a chance to learn their differences in approach and attitude.

Yes, that is the lesson Ann is taking away from this entire experience. And I hope anyone reading this thread will interview their shop/instructor ahead of signing up for the class.

THANKS, everyone who took the time to respond. I forward a link to Ann and the decision is up to her on how she wants to handle her AOW class.

 

[raoulsttexas]

This really makes me appreciate my AOW class. I happened to do it in Cozumel and the instructor didn't have many other classes going on during the week I was there. I ended up getting 12 dives with him and he taught me nearly every one of the optional classes. On top of that, I brought a list of things I needed work on and ended the course knowing a LOT more. With 12 dives with him right next to me, I also felt more experienced.

And to the point of the OP, we did a dive to ~100fsw. He forgot the pencil, so he switched to photography (something I didn't even ask for). The following day, we hit 109fsw with pencil in hand. It also happened to be the first time that I offically narc'd (and heard voices...seriously). I am VERY glad for that experience so that I can know how I might respond to that and what to look for.

I'm currently taking a Rescue course right now and it's pretty good. I've learned that if I say "I'm interested in X class, but I do NOT want to just pay for a card. What can you do for me?" It tells the instructor that I'm serious, want to learn, and not interested in just another card, so don't gloss over things.

 

[gypsyjim]

I too find this story shows a lack of interest on the part of the lds, in going even an extra inch for the customer than that which is the minimum required.

When my kids wanted to dive I did quite a bit of research to find an instructor with the reputation for producing safe divers. We drove a long way for those classes, but at every step I felt the course director and his instructors and DM's were willing to put in extra effort for their student's sake.

I did not experience their 100ft dive that my daughter did, as I drew duty on that dive to stay with another instructor at @60-65ft, to stay with a Jr AOW, my son. I know that Melissa said it was a very educational dive, dealing with a nasty thermocline that dropped water temps into the high 30's, and zero viz the second they neared the bottom, so buddy contact had to be maintained by touch. A potentially very disorienting dive that gave my daughter a lot of respect for such dives.

After all, the specialty dives in the AOW are not truly certifying dives, but a chance to gain a little experience in various areas of diving the instructor feels would benefit the new diver.

That course director had to move his class clear around to the opposite side of Lake George from where they normally conduct OW and AOW classes, to reach that 100 ft depth, while they could easily have simply done 65-70 ft dives from the regular "class" area. Obviously the added depth, viz and thermocline were considered valuable in the AOW deep training.

I know my own "deep" AOW dive could have been a bit more thorough, as it was in warm Caribbean water and involved skills I had easily memorized. I learned more from my daughter's post 100ft dive debriefing than I did from my own dive.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

My most regular training activity is dive with AOW students. We always do search and recovery, and it requires no special equipment. Our deep dive is to an altitude adjusted depth of up to 80 feet, but we barely make 60 feet actual. However, given conditions (dark, cold, limited vis, altitufe factor ( about 500 feet above sea level), it is a great training dive. I stress three things on every AOW dive, in addition to the task at hand. First is buoyancy control. Second, compass work. Third, dive planning and execution of the dive plan. Our second day of diving usually starts with me saying, "Welcome back. Today you all have to be better divers to successfully complete this course." I ramp up for the deep dive (first of the day) and then we spend a lot of time on search and recovery, having done navigation patterns and work as part of our first day's dives. The skill levels for AOW students are vary all over the board. Some students have come right from their open water class ( something I do not recommend) and other have up to 100 "real dives" in their resume. AT my LDS we try to take AOW out of the "experience" category and into the "training" category. When selecting a shop and instructor to take AOW, I think the best input is to talk to other people, and find out their experience. Completion of the AOW class should in fact result in you being a better diver, not just carrying a different card. Sadly, some shops/instructors just want to get through it. This thread points that out. It's not about the card, its about the competence the class should bring. You are right to expect that.
DivemasterDennis scubasnobs.com

 

[redacted]

The more interesting wrecks in our area are done off NJ and LI boats where the Captains require AOW given the wrecks are past 90ft.

A great reason for seeking AOW. The good news is the C-card she will receive will get her on those dives. But it may not prepare her as well as it could for those dives. I am a big fan of learning without the aide of a formal class whenever possible. It tends to make the lesson a bit more work but it also allows you to target your learning rather than just accepting the class plan. I also find I retain information better when I hunt it down rather than have it fed to me.

That pretty much means that I am not a big fan of LDS scuba instruction to begin with. I would probably find the LDS in this story to be particularly disappointing.