Antioxidants and cns

[pescador775]

Jaydee, it appears that Doc Deco in not aware of the range of products available. While oral SOD is poorly absorbed there are creams and nasal sprays which are well absorbed. These, of necessity, come from Switzerland. In the US, you see, nasal sprays are considered a drug and only dispensed by prescription. However, there is no such prescription available (to my knowledge). Although originating in Switzerland I believe there are US sources for the cream. However, the spray appears to be more effective. Also, there is the interesting finding from U. of Uppsala that oral intake of fish oil raises tissue levels of SOD. I have no idea why this should be so but body chemistry is extremely complex and I don't really wish to research this for an off hand question like yours. There still remains the question of whether anti oxidants can stave off or moderate oxygen toxicity. It is possible that they can, only possible. If you think that it is probable and are looking for the right stuff, I can help. I suggest fish oil concentrate, NAC (n acetyl-cysteine), grape seed extract and BHT butylated hydroxy toluene; also, the SOD if you can obtain the cream or spray. If you want the BHT and I recommend it, I can refer you to a source. Just PM me.

Why am I trying to help? I am in the business of "can do" as opposed to "can't do". I'm here to look out for diver's interests on the special interest threads. Just as I dare to ping on the Scubapro shills, the shop owners (some), and industry flacks who might be biased I also seek the advice and counsel of those special interest reps who want to stick to the facts when discussing their products. I can't be an expert in everything but my instincts about people are very good. Doc Deco is one of the good guys but, like most, he doesn't have time to research every (sometimes hare brained) idea. That's where I stir up things and force them to comment.

 

[H2Andy]

You're sort of a self-appointed seeker of justice and truth, one would be forced
to conclude.

alas, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" has already been used.

 

[BillP]

Pesky, I don’t think any of the Medical Moderators on this board have claimed to know everything (but at least they do seem to realize what they don’t know!) Dr. Deco will even come right out and say when he has no knowledge or experience in a topic he’s specifically asked about on this forum. (And you’ll note that he doesn’t acknowledge his lack of knowledge and then go on to make up a BS answer anyway or add a lot of irrelevant drivel to his answer to try to impress. He limits his answers to what he knows.) So here’s your chance to teach us all something.

You claim that superoxide dismutase (SOD) creams and nasal sprays are well absorbed? OK, show us your evidence to that effect. There are studies where researchers have made SOD creams that they have applied topically and found a topical effect. They applied their SOD creams to skin lesions and the skin lesions improved. But the topic of this discussion is antioxidant use for CNS O2 toxicity- not skin lesions. So where is your evidence that these same SOD creams will be absorbed systemically into the body in significant amounts, pass through that blood brain barrier Dr. Deco told you about, and affect free radical buildup in the brain? Also, I haven’t found any scientific evidence for the use of SOD nasal sprays. Can you point out to us where SOD nasal sprays have been found to be well absorbed, pass the blood brain barrier, and affect free radical levels in the brain? Or are you just making stuff up again?

I’ll tell you what I did find. I’m guessing you found the same source, because you appear to be using it. There’s a fellow named Roger Mason who sells anti-aging products on a website called Get Young Again. On his website at...

http://www.getyoungagain.com/yaproducts/html/articles/TheFDAWontLetMeSellYouSODSupplements.html

...he makes claims extraordinarily similar to yours. He’ll be happy to sell you a 2 oz jar or 2 oz spray bottle of SOD that has a remarkable “50,000 PIU of real Zn/Cu complexed superoxide dismutase in each two ounces”! I suspect that Roger is also your “US source” for SOD products from Switzerland because I didn’t find another one. But what’s a PIU? It’s a “pyrogallol inhibition unit”. I’ve never heard of that unit of measurement, and I suspect that Roger made it up as a marketing tool, but I certainly don’t know everything either, so let’s assume for a moment that it’s roughly equivalent to the International Units a research scientist would use when they talk about SOD. In the studies where SOD was used intravenously I found doses ranging from 1750 to 100,000 units per kilogram as the dose. Let’s take the smallest end of that range. Assuming that the 50,000PIU in Roger’s jars is roughly equivalent to IU, and assuming that you didn’t just make up the fact that SOD creams are well absorbed systemically, and further assuming that the cream is absorbed 100% (and continuing to ignore that troublesome blood-brain barrier that you haven’t gotten around for us yet), a typical 70kg (154lb) diver would have to use a minimum of 2 ½ 2 oz jars at $20 each (or 2 ½ 2 oz spray bottles also at $20 each)of Roger’s potion each time they dive to reach the minimum dose studied with IV SOD. If you use the maximum dose that I found, that diver would have to use 140 jars- and even more if the SOD cream isn’t absorbed 100%!

Now just who is this Roger Mason you seem to be relying on for information? He tells us on his website at:

http://www.getyoungagain.com/yaproducts/html/about_us.jsp

He is a Prophet! A Guru out to slay the dragons of knowledge, science, and medicine in the defense of the oppressed! Dash the science-let’s go with what might work and sounds good! A lot like you, Pesky.

So back to the subject at hand, jaydee197 asked about the use of antioxidants in CNS oxygen toxicity in divers. You seem to be suggesting that he use SOD cream or nasal spray. Yet you say:

Supplementation appears to be harmless and may be beneficial, possibly even buffering "CNS" toxicity, but I don't know not having done a literature search for this specific property.

So you haven’t done the research, you don’t know the answer, yet you know more about it just off the top of your head than Dr. Deco, and you seem to suggest to jaydee197 that he might want to spend perhaps an extra $40 to $2800 per dive (or at least dive day) for SOD cream or spray to help with CNS O2 toxicity. OK Pesky, where is your evidence that it works? Or are you just making things up as you go along- again?

 

[pescador775]

Thanks, I looked up that guy Mason. I don't agree with all he writes, far from it. He did, however, call Nick Perricone a 'gas bag'. I love it.

Oh yes, you asked about PIU. This is a common term used by medical researchers. You, being so heavily involved with professional writing and business activities, wouldn't necessarily have heard of it. Frankly, I would be surprised if you knew anything about the subject of anti oxidants. You seem to be trying hard to catch up. Never too old, right? Good for you.

SOD activity is determined by measuring the inhibition of the autoxidation of pyrogallol by superoxide radicals (or anionic peroxide radicals). I believe that one unit (PIU) of SOD activity is defined as the amount of enzyme that inhibits the reaction by 50%. You can check on that one for me. I suggest that you look up a paper written by Markland (sp) in the 1970's. Sorry, my memory is not what it used to be.

Pesky

 

[pescador775]

Andy,
Laughing out loud! Why are all you high school kids dropping in on this thread? Try "Basic SCUBA" or similar.

 

[Snowbear]

Since Doc V is out at the moment.....
Please re-read this post regarding the Dr Deco forum.
Please refrain from insults as well.

 

[H2Andy]

well, i actually never graduated from high school, feeling that they had nothing
useful to teach me because i knew how to read, write, and make things up...

but i do know how to spell troll

 

[DocVikingo]

Gentlemen, decorum, please.

Continued snide comments, rude asides, insults, innuendo & the like will result in this thread being closed.

I personally think it's an interesting topic & have learned from the discussion. Let's keep it professional & dignified.

Thank you,

DocVikingo

 

[BillP]

Oh yes, you asked about PIU. This is a common term used by medical researchers.

Common, you say? That's interesting. Most reputable medical researchers publish their findings in peer reviewed journals. Most of those journals are listed on PubMed/Medline. I did a search on The National Library of Medicine's PubMed for "PIU's" (and pyrogallol inhibition unit) before I asked you about it and found no papers listed that used PIU as a unit of measurement. Not one. Zero. Nada. Just to keep the search "honest" I also did a search of the typical "IU" (international units) abbreviation and found over 20,000 articles that used that abbreviation as a unit of measurement. I also did a Google search for "PIU" and "pyrogallol inhibition unit". The only relevant hits that I found (ie those talking about measurement of SOD and not Italian words, people named Piu, etc.) specifically referred back to Roger's potions- and no one else's (that I found). "PIU" may be commonly used by writers of the kinds of papers you read, but I sure can't find it in the scientific literature. But like I say, I sure don't know everything, and I suppose I could have missed something in my search. You haven't been much help in my education, however- other than to make yet another unsubstantiated claim, that is. I'm still willing to learn, though.

You can check on that one for me. I suggest that you look up a paper written by Markland (sp) in the 1970's. Sorry, my memory is not what it used to be.

You are joking, right? This is the best you can do? You tell me to find a 30 year old paper by an author where you're not even sure of his name? Your struggles to climb out of the hole you've dug for yourself become more and more ridiculous, Pesky.

But enough of this side topic, and getting back to the subject at hand you still have done nothing to substantiate the claim you make about SOD creams and nasal sprays being "well absorbed". (You kinda conveniently forgot that bit, eh? What with your memory and all, I guess.) Since you made that claim to "correct" Dr. Deco's "mistake" about SOD's use to prevent oxygen toxicity induced seizures, remember that you also need to show that SOD creams are absorbed in substantial amounts into the system, and they pass the blood brain barrier, and they affect free radicals in the brain sufficiently to reduce the chance of seizures. Come on, Pesky, I'm only asking you to back up the claims that you have made.

I would never be one to tell a poster on this board to "shut up". It's certainly not my place to do so, and it would surely offend DocV's sense of decorum. But I do feel free to ask people to "put up" when they set off my BS meter. (And Pesky, you peg my BS meter nearly every time you post on a dive medicine topic.) And when those people repeatedly can't or won't "put up" to back up their claims, I have no qualms about warning people to exercise caution when reading advice from such posters. IMHO, I don't feel that their "information" can be trusted if they're unwilling or unable to back it up with evidence. So Pesky, how about it? Where's your evidence that what you say is true? (And no, even more vague unsubstantiated claims or another personal attack against me or anyone else to divert attention from the question at hand won't qualify as "evidence" that you are telling the truth.) It's time to "put up".

We're still waiting, Pesky....

BTW, Pesky, in your post above you seem to be implying that you'd never heard of Roger Mason or seen his Get Young Again website before I mentioned it. What other US sources of SOD creams and sprays from Switzerland were you talking about in your post above when you claimed their existence? No need to make it a long list- one or two will do. You have such a broad experience with antioxidants and their sources (having offered to direct JD), this should be an easy one for you.

 

[J1M1]

Bill, thanks again for your insight.. J.D.