Anti-Fogging Treatments for New Masks. (a comparison of techniques)

[lowviz]

Perfectly clean is good. Probably good enough, for many masks and divers. But, clean and hydroxylated seems to be better.

You pretty much nailed it.

Both abrasion and flaming are known to science as making a clean glass surface more hydrophilic (water loving). Authoritative references for both exist *somewhere* way back in this thread. I'll bring all the references forward when I summarize everything in some sort of 'final' post. Ammonia is better than flaming or abrasion but dealing with a volatile liquid is a pain.

To your point (and @drrich2's) 'simple and effective' is everything. A sticky cream that you just wash off after 3-5 days sounds perfect to me.

 

[lowviz]

Any thoughts on how thick the layer of paste will need to be when applied to the lens?

Sorry, overlooked this question. 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick seems to be best.

-now working on a 'cream' that can be tapped into place. Same formulation, just a bit more water.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

That is good information. But, do you think it does the same chemical transformation that we are seeking with this ammonia treatment? I.e. does it hydroxylate (I think I'm using the right term) the glass, making it highly resistant to fogging?

I'm looking forward to a final answer on this that gives us a fairly simple way to accomplish the hydroxylation of the glass, to make it, well, as hard to fog as it can possibly be. Perfectly clean is good. Probably good enough, for many masks and divers. But, clean and hydroxylated seems to be better.

If we (meaning, really, lowviz) end up with a relatively simple paste that can be used safely, I have already thought a little about making up a container of it and having it at the shop to possibly dole out to customers who buy new masks. Just one more perk of being our customer! It would REALLY be nice if my OW students quit showing up for their pool session with masks that constantly fog...

I don’t know about adding some sort of treatment to make glass anti fogging. All I know about is to make the glass as clean as possible (removal of all silicone based chemicals in the manufacturing process), which as I understand it is what causes glass to fog and makes it difficult for water to “sheet out” which is what you want.
All I do is clean it with Bon Ami, use spit as a defog and do my dive. It’s as simple as that.

 

[lowviz]

All I know about is to make the glass as clean as possible (removal of all silicone based chemicals in the manufacturing process), which as I understand it is what causes glass to fog and makes it difficult for water to “sheet out” which is what you want.

I can easily show you ultraclean glass that beads water worse than anything. All you need to do is convert the glass surface by treating it with trimethylsilyl chloride:

Reference: Error - Cookies Turned Off​

Ignore the 'cookie error' if you get one on the link above. It is still clickable.

"Untreated glass contains silicate and silanol groups that can act as ion-exchange and nucleophilic centers. To mask these groups and decrease the hydrophilicity of the surface, various reactive silanes are frequently used to coat the glass surface. This appendix describes a procedure for silanizing glassware."

We are looking for a simple 'science based' fundamental solution to the fogging problem. Everyone seems to have their own secret witchcraft that mostly gets around the core problem and is more than good enough for them.

This is pure science research, the answer to the problem is everything. No patents, no secret recipes. There exists a problem that we all agree on, some masks fog worse than others. (1) Why? (2) Is there an easy fix that does not involve either abrasion or flaming?

Nothing more than that. Some are very interested in the science behind the problem, others are content to use their own fixes and just go diving.

No judgement here, several of us are all about the science and mechanisms at play. Others aren't.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I can easily show you ultraclean glass that beads water worse than anything. All you need to do is convert the glass surface by treating it with trimethylsilyl chloride:

Reference: Error - Cookies Turned Off​

Ignore the 'cookie error' if you get one on the link above. It is still clickable.

"Untreated glass contains silicate and silanol groups that can act as ion-exchange and nucleophilic centers. To mask these groups and decrease the hydrophilicity of the surface, various reactive silanes are frequently used to coat the glass surface. This appendix describes a procedure for silanizing glassware."

We are looking for a simple 'science based' fundamental solution to the fogging problem. Everyone seems to have their own secret witchcraft that mostly gets around the core problem and is more than good enough for them.

This is pure science research, the answer to the problem is everything. No patents, no secret recipes. There exists a problem that we all agree on, some masks fog worse than others. (1) Why? (2) Is there an easy fix that does not involve either abrasion or flaming?

Nothing more than that. Some are very interested in the science behind the problem, others are content to use their own fixes and just go diving.

No judgement here, several of us are all about the science and mechanisms at play. Others aren't.

Cool man!

 

[Ulfhedinn]

I don't remember: toothpaste for sure, flame maybe.

I surrendered to koolaid and am a happy seadrops user now: they work well on this mask.

Koolaid?

 

[dmaziuk]

Koolaid?

Drinking the Kool-Aid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ulfhedinn]

Drinking the Kool-Aid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ah yes.. Misunderstood

 

[dmaziuk]

I yes.. Misunderstood

Seriously though, at one point I realised that my masks fog up when a water gets in and washes off the surfactant. With Sea Drops that's what you're supposed to do: rinse it before descending. So now if I don't hold my junk tight enough stepping of the boat, or the mask strap being at wrong angle causing a leak, it's no problem: that stuff can take it.

 

[stuartv]

I don’t know about adding some sort of treatment to make glass anti fogging. All I know about is to make the glass as clean as possible (removal of all silicone based chemicals in the manufacturing process), which as I understand it is what causes glass to fog and makes it difficult for water to “sheet out” which is what you want.
All I do is clean it with Bon Ami, use spit as a defog and do my dive. It’s as simple as that.

It's been discussed quite a bit in this thread. Putting the mask through a cycle in the dishwasher (with dishwasher detergent) works REALLY well. I mention it because I suspect it might get the glass similarly clean to Bon Ami, but also have the added benefit of removing contaminants (like silicone mold release chemicals) from the mask skirt. The concern is that stuff on the mask skirt could leach onto the glass over time. So, what was perfectly clean after Bon Ami eventually becomes "not clean" anymore and you would need to clean it with Bon Ami (or something) again to restore it's fog resistance.