Animal Planets "Whale Wars" airing this week

[adurso]

You asked for rhetoric and I gave it to you. Sorry about my "internet muscle flexing". The ocean is a very personal place for me and I'm sure for you too. Every time I go down to my local spots and swim with the critters, it fills me with such good energy that the rest of my week is effected by it. Diving is a passion for all of us. I just want to make sure that its there for my children and your children to experience. I think that is Sea Shepherds ultimate goal. To preserve the majestic ocean and its creatures for future generations. We may disagree on there methods but I'm sure we can all agree that whaling is wrong and that it should be our ultimate goal to end it. Hopefully before its too late.

I do not want rhetoric. I have been diving for almost 40 years now, and I am still amazed and delighted every time I go uunder the water. My wife and children dive with me as well as a niece, and they have done so since they were 10, even though they are finishing college now, they still want to dive during breaks and the summer.

I agree that there is no use in whaling and should be ended. I think that buffoons hurt the conservation goal.

I am more familiar with violence, from an institutional and personal standpoint, then I hope anyone ever gets to be.

As such I do not advocate violence as a means to resolving anything.

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" according to Salvor Hardin, a character Asimov created in his "Foundation" series.

Are we that incompetent?

 

[Mr.X]

There are better ways to go about achieving the same goals.

Hi Doc,

How goes? I understand what you are saying. Sadly I wish there were more representation in the Antarctic sanctuary...but it's a far-flung part of the world and expensive to police for anyone. Forget the UN.

With respect to the abortion fanatic and Sea Shepherd...there may seem to be surface similarities, however the major difference is that Sea Shepherd personnel do not want to hurt anyone. While they may seem radical, inside beats the heart of folks who care about the Earth, its people and denizens. In short, from my time with Greenpeace, Watson, and the most ardent mates - they want to stop the machine. They do not want to hurt people. They've never been that way. That being said, in the heat of the moment anyone can get carried away...including the rhetoric. This goes for the Japanese whalers and Sea Shepherds. It's kinda like boys playing hard and heavy, holding wooden bats, surging back and forth, but never swinging to hurt.

Honestly, one day I hope I can just wake up knowing the Japanese whaling industry decided enough, no profit, no sense in being a total wank-off and just gave up the whole damn charade. It just hasn't happened since I started paying attention in 1975. I can dream...

Cheers Doc,

X

p.s. I couldn't get your TED link to work?

 

[adurso]

SS has reacted against the Norwegians in the past. I don't think the Fins hunt commercially. Iceland has other concerns these days. The big reason SS cannot intercept Norwegian whalers is probably because they are hunting whales in local waters. The Japanese whalers are in international waters ; hunting in a sanctuary under the guise of scientific research.

X

The Finns do hunt commercially. SS ( the intials creep me out) are not a duly constitued authority anywhere, they have no authority to intercept anyone in international waters or otherwise, therefore local waters should not impede them. I would submit, however, that the Norwegians will react far more harshly than the Japanese should they be interfered with.

Yes it is obvious that the Japanese are hunting under the guise of "research" but they violate no laws. Interesting that the Japanese perpetuate the farce, the Finns and Norwegians make no such excuse.

Again, address the reasons for the demand and the supply will stop.

 

[FrankPro1]

Just because something is legal or not, doesn't make it morally right. Just think a few decades ago, a minority couldn't marry a Caucasian and a few decades before that they couldn't even vote. Look at where were now in this country when it comes to civil rights, we have just elected the first African American president. Just because the Japanese whaling fleet uses loop holes in international laws, doesn't change the fact that whale hunting is deeply morally wrong. It took people like Martin Luther King and many others too challenge society and its "laws" to make this country the great beacon of hope that it is today. It will take the efforts of people like Paul Watson and many others to stand up against whaling, to stop what WE know is wrong. I agree that the reasons for the demand must be addressed and once this happens the supply will stop. But until then Sea Shepherd will be out there, fighting the good fight.

 

[Mr.X]

The Finns do hunt commercially. SS ( the intials creep me out) are not a duly constitued authority anywhere, they have no authority to intercept anyone in international waters or otherwise, therefore local waters should not impede them. I would submit, however, that the Norwegians will react far more harshly than the Japanese should they be interfered with.

Yes it is obvious that the Japanese are hunting under the guise of "research" but they violate no laws. Interesting that the Japanese perpetuate the farce, the Finns and Norwegians make no such excuse.

Again, address the reasons for the demand and the supply will stop.

Yes. I'll say Sea Shepherds. My acronym is creepy. I'll have to change all of my posts.

Finland doesn't hunt anymore to the best of my knowledge. In fact, Sweden and Finland have urged Norway to reduce harvest numbers in the past. Can you direct me to any information to the contrary?

In the case of the Antarctic hunt the Japanese are fishing outside their local waters. The only reason to be there is to conduct research. Not a good place to have a Wasabi blowout and have the world get on your case. In the case of Norway....they are fishing in their own waters. You go ape there - expect a gun boat on your behind. Same situation if you were in Japanese, or American local waters.

X

 

[adurso]

Yes. I'll say Sea Shepherds. My acronym is creepy. I'll have to change all of my posts.

Finland doesn't hunt anymore to the best of my knowledge. In fact, Sweden and Finland have urged Norway to reduce harvest numbers in the past. Can you direct me to any information to the contrary?

In the case of the Antarctic hunt the Japanese are fishing outside their local waters. That being the only reason for them to be there is to conduct research. Not a good place to have a Wasabi blowout and have the world get on your case. In the case of Norway....they are fishing in their own waters. You go ape there - expect a gun boat on your behind. Same situation if you were in Japanese, or American local waters.

X

I just read it earlier today but cannot remember for the life of me where. Although Finland and Sweden have urged Norway to reduce numbers Finland is still mentioned as one of the pro whaling nations. Oddly enough I want to say in a Wiki article. I( I have a horrible cold and stayed home and instead of doing something constructive have been dorkiing around the internet all day)

The Japanese "research" excuse is pure hokum, it is nothing but greed pure and simple, they are using a loophole to make money.

If there was more international opprobrium perhaps the Japanese would be less inclined to mock the WC guidelines.

 

[adurso]

Just because something is legal or not, doesn't make it morally right. Just think a few decades ago, a minority couldn't marry a Caucasian and a few decades before that they couldn't even vote. Look at where were now in this country when it comes to civil rights, we have just elected the first African American president. Just because the Japanese whaling fleet uses loop holes in international laws, doesn't change the fact that whale hunting is deeply morally wrong. It took people like Martin Luther King and many others too challenge society and its "laws" to make this country the great beacon of hope that it is today. It will take the efforts of people like Paul Watson and many others to stand up against whaling, to stop what WE know is wrong. I agree that the reasons for the demand must be addressed and once this happens the supply will stop. But until then Sea Shepherd will be out there, fighting the good fight.

Legality has little to do with morals or ethics; but we are a nation of laws.

The miscegenation laws had a direct impact on me; after the war the first marriage commissioner my parents went to in Philadelphia would not issue a license nor perform a marriage because he did not approve of "mixed" marriages.

Martin did not advocate violence in any way shape or form, civil disobedience is a Constitutionally viable process to redress wrongs, not even close to what Watson is doing...

 

[Mr.X]

One last point on which I have harped on for the past couple of years. The Japanese fishing industry does not need to hunt whales. They have all the data they need with respect to sustainability. They have a surplus of whale meat in freezers. This meat often goes to senior centers, or given a "new' life as school lunches. All have met with tepid results. The old codgers eatin' the stuff will soon pass on.

The absurdity of all of this is that the Japanese whaling industry hunts for an entirely different reason ; none of it to feed a hungry nation.

X

ps -Aduso - feel better. Nothing like cold and flu season in the NE

 

[adurso]

One last point on which I have harped on for the past couple of years. The Japanese fishing industry does not need to hunt whales. They have all the data they need with respect to sustainability. They have a surplus of whale meat in freezers. This meat often goes to senior centers, or given a "new' life as school lunches. All have met with tepid results. The old codgers eatin' the stuff will soon pass on.

I do not think that anyone doubts that they have no need to hunt whales for any reason. I have heard the most absurd arguments ranging from cultural inheritance to the BS research. Culturally the Japanese were NOT traditional whale hunters, and as you point out have no need for further data nor meat.

Thanks for the well wishes, I've a racquetball match in the morning and if I do not get cleared up I am going to get my butt kicked...

 

[Doc Intrepid]

"Honestly, one day I hope I can just wake up knowing the Japanese whaling industry decided enough, no profit, no sense in being a total wank-off and just gave up the whole damn charade. It just hasn't happened since I started paying attention in 1975. I can dream..."

Cheers Doc

X

p.s. I couldn't get your TED link to work?

Hi X,

Long time, no? Hows it going?

I agree with you - I also hope that one day the Japanese just decide to give it up. It does seem somewhat bizarre, TTBOMK there is very little profit in whaling, and not enough demand even exists that all the meat harvested is actually consumed. The whole 'follow the money' gambit does not seem to turn up rational answers. Ergo, there is more to what is going on than money alone.

The good part is that, as others have already said, we can hope that over time this sort of thing will become increasingly less desirable and less acceptable to more and more nations. Time is on our side (or the whale's side!)

On the down side, with exponential growth occurring throughout so much of the developing world, the oceans are going to continue to be a source of protein and wealth to be exploited as hard as possible - those who get there first get the most. I wouldn't be surprised to see, in the not too distant future, hostilities break out over violations of fishing rights and other disputes involving limited resources from the oceans.

So we can hope, but we also need to refocus and re-think, with a renewed commitment and sense of enthusiasm, about how best to address the coming challenges that we will all face! I am as ardent about preserving the oceans as anyone. I just want to do it in a way that doesn't get folks hurt or killed.

Thanks for your personal thoughts about Sea Shepards. Aside from yourself, I have not spoken to anyone else directly involved in their activities. I hope they remain as committed to nonviolence as you remember them!


(It's odd that that link did not work for you - I just clicked it and it worked for me. I will inquire with my resident computer expert (my son) to see if there is something else I can do. It's quite a remarkable link...and Stone's research is being funded in part by my cousin, who works with NASA. It is a compelling view of whats to come!)

Take care and dive safe,

Doc