An Open Letter of Personal Perspective to the Diving Industry by NetDoc

[Zippsy]

I'm stuck reading /typing on an iPhone so I'll keep my comments short:
1. Great post, Pete. Spot on.
2. Don't bother trying to convince Jim that there is a reason for a range for standards. I bet he thinks there should be a national speed limit of 25mph on highways because driving faster in blizzards is hazardous. To hell with you folk in Alabama.
3. I agree with one person above as I see lots of instructors of various agencies overweighting students out here too. This practice continues despite the fact that it seems to be a major contributing factor to the regular deaths of students.

 

[SeaHorse81]

Don't bother trying to convince Jim that there is a reason for a range for standards. I bet he thinks there should be a national speed limit of 25mph on highways because driving faster in blizzards is hazardous. To hell with you folk in Alabama.

If you're trying to say Jim errs way on the conservative side in safety recommendations, I'm pretty sure he's real okay with that. Probably considers it a compliment.

I can think of worse things to be accused of.

 

[KevinNM]

Why couldn't he ascend with all of them??? Why would you leave any of them below? It's only fifteen feet. Take them all up with you. That's the actual standard.

So the adult darts for the surface, the instructor grabs the kids and zooms up. One kid panics at this, holds breath, blows his lungs and dies. That isn't negligence leading to the instructor being sued, that is negligent homicide (in that the instructors actions DIRECTLY caused the death) leading to the instructor spending many years in a very small room. So no, I think that course of action has an obvious bad outcome.

Instead he has the kids ascend in a controlled fashion while he watches them, gets to the surface in a minute and a half and finds no adult. So now he does what? How long does it take to get their BCs inflated and their weight belts dropped, which I think is what he should do before he can go look for the missing adult? How long to find him in that murky lake? Could the adult drown in that time? Well, yes, people have. So that path has problems too.

To keep people reasonably safe in this circumstance you need to be at the surface with the adult and under water with the kids at the same time. Which seems hard with one instructor.

IIRC, there was also a boy scout policy about adults being alone with kids that contributed to this disaster in some way too.

 

[redacted]

. I agree with one person above as I see lots of instructors of various agencies overweighting students out here too. This practice continues despite the fact that it seems to be a major contributing factor to the regular deaths of students.

Is that because agencies (any and all) fail to set adequate standards for safe and effective training in this (or any other) area? And, if they do set such standards, what do they do to see that they are adhered to?

It does little good to set a 25 MPH speed limit if there is no one stopping the speeders until after the accident.

 

[demed]

The incident that occurred would not have if standards had not allowed it to be set up this way.

...

I am going to push for SEI/PDIC to support a change in ratios if nothing else. SDI/TDI is already on board with it.

Standards did not allow for this to happen - a (probably good) instructor with horrible horrible judgment let this happen. standards were violated and the instructor expelled.

However if appear so hell bent in promoting your little consortium, that you have to make a crusade at all costs and forget facts - i guess intellectual integrity is optional at your agency(ies).

---------- Post added December 16th, 2014 at 10:59 PM ----------

Pete, what if the deceased were the guy going up, and the instructor had stayed at the bottom. You see? This is exactly what many of us are trying to portray in this discussion. But you just don't want to hear anything about it and just claim that the "50%" decision the instructor made is breaking standard, but imply tacitly, that if he had chosen the other 50% he would not be breaking standards. He would have broken standards ANY WAY HE WENT! You see, and that's the problem. This is not about PADI bashing, it's about the way stuff is sometimes setup in a way you can get in a ****load of trouble as an instructor. But then, there is some agency bashing. Standards should be different, maybe. This would force both instructors and shops (who many times instructors have to obey to keep their jobs) to have better track records. Also, we should KEEP REVISITING how PADI is training instructors. Yes, instructors make the choices, the agency doesn't. But honestly, HONESTLY, if you believe a PADI IE proves anyone can be a half ass decent instructor, you need a new pair of glasses. Should we be discussing this or not? And maybe that's what Carney's letter could start. I couldn't care less if it was his initial intent or not. I couldn't care less if he is doing it for marketing reasons. There is a lot to evaluate regarding standards and how instructors are taught. The 30 pound dilemma is a direct descendent of the stupid way IDCs and IEs are setup for most recreational agencies. We NEED urgently to discuss all this. PADI is not intetested in discussing this stuff. We should.

I do not what you teach, but maybe not scuba.
A scuba instructor, of any agency, with a minimum of good judgment, would not have brought a sick kid in murky water for a DSD, would not have loaded him with 30lbs of lead, and most likely would have followed the bolting participant bringing the other two with him\her.

If you want to abdicate yours and any responsibility by hiding behind the finger of the standards (or the bad evil shop), go ahead, but do us a favor and not call yourself an instructor.

---------- Post added December 16th, 2014 at 11:02 PM ----------

but even IF "standards" are followed how does an instructor be at two places at once?

...

If the kid was alone (1:1 ratio) and totally babysat by the instructor, even if overweighted... would he have died?

another one who needs to abdicates his\her responsibility behind a standard instead of using his\her brain.

---------- Post added December 16th, 2014 at 11:04 PM ----------

So the adult darts for the surface, the instructor grabs the kids and zooms up. One kid panics at this, holds breath, blows his lungs and dies. That isn't negligence leading to the instructor being sued, that is negligent homicide (in that the instructors actions DIRECTLY caused the death) leading to the instructor spending many years in a very small room. So no, I think that course of action has an obvious bad outcome.

Wow! talk about distorting facts, reality and physics in order to satisfy your desperate need to abdicate individual responsibility. You are probably serving meals in that small room environment as a day job.

---------- Post added December 16th, 2014 at 11:09 PM ----------

Is that because agencies (any and all) fail to set adequate standards for safe and effective training in this (or any other) area? And, if they do set such standards, what do they do to see that they are adhered to?

It does little good to set a 25 MPH speed limit if there is no one stopping the speeders until after the accident.

the agency sets the standards and the instructors who do not follow them get expelled, the same way speeders are fined when they are actually caught going above the limit.

I find interesting you instead would advocate the police state of Minority Report where everything is controlled at all times and people arrested for thinking about possibly breaking the law.

 

[Zippsy]

If you're trying to say Jim errs way on the conservative side in safety recommendations, I'm pretty sure he's real okay with that. Probably considers it a compliment.

I can think of worse things to be accused of.

I'm positive that he is okay with it. The problem is that he demands the rest of the world teach by the same obsessive compulsive overly cautious way. His suggestions may be perfectly suited for some situations but ridiculously overbearing in others. I prefer the standards that cover both situations but also require us to use our own brain and determine which situation we are in.

 

[ElGaucho]

If you want to abdicate yours and any responsibility by hiding behind the finger of the standards (or the bad evil shop), go ahead, but do us a favor and not call yourself an instructor.

Dude, really. We are having hypothetical discussions on the aftermath of something. It is about making it better for everyone. No need to make it personal about my teaching, or as you proved further along your post, other people's choice of where to cook their meals, because my teaching or my person is not under judgment here. I did not participate in this event. I do not overweight students. I do not kill people. Don't distort the facts. We are trying to have an adult discussion, if you need to make it personal to "win" your argument, the kindergarten doors open at 8am.

[begin have a bit of your own attitude] I do believe having all these discussions makes us better ourselves as instructors. Now, since you made it personal, let me shoot you one; apparently you think it doesn't because you have that exact "master instructor" mentality were there is nothing to learn, there is nothing to improve in the way we teach or the decisions we make. We are analyzing in hindsight, which is clearly a much more comfortable place to do it than in the water. I do believe that having these discussions helps us improve as a lot. But if you want to think: that instructor was an idiot, PADI rocks, Im a Master Instructor and thus a genius, let's not discuss anything. Please, go ahead, I seriously do not want to have you close by as a fellow instructor, or as a diving buddy even. [end have a bit of your own attitude]

You see? No need to get personal, and no need to bash everyone around the fact that apparently you are not interested in having intellectual discussions.

 

[redacted]

the agency sets the standards and the instructors who do not follow them get expelled, the same way speeders are fined when they are actually caught going above the limit.

I find interesting you instead would advocate the police state of Minority Report where everything is controlled at all times and people arrested for thinking about possibly breaking the law.

How do the instructors get caught? Waiting for accident reports is probably not adequate. Just responding to trainee reports may not be proactive enough. Is there some other inspection program, perhaps survey feedback or training monitoring, instituted by any of the training agencies? Where is the agency patrol car? There are many options short of the extreme measure you seem to see as the only alternative.

Since agencies are collecting $$$ for providing safe, effective training; they probably have a legal obligation to see that the training provided is safe and that is a basis for their liability.

Still no answers to what the student weighting standards are for any of the agencies. Does that mean there are none?

 

[The Chairman]

So the adult darts for the surface, the instructor grabs the kids and zooms up.

We're talking about fifteen feet here. If they were properly weighted, it would have been an easy, easy swim. If they had been taught about BCD inflators, they could have inflated their own. It would appear that the instructor panicked along with the adult diver and simply abandoned his charges on the bottom causing them to panic as well. Testimony indicates that the deceased tried to swim after the instructor to the surface, but failed. Standards just don't seem to be the problem here at all. I don't even see them as a mitigating factor in this incident.

It's my opinion that there are two main causes for this incident. First, the parents should have never ever given permission for their recently ill son to go diving. Respiratory problems are exacerbated at depth and not ameliorated. He had no business diving and they should be held culpable for their incredibly poor decision. Secondly, the instructor broke three and maybe more standards. The worst was abandoning his charges at depth. You may not realize this, but the tank still had plenty of air in it.

PADI is now being castigated by a competitor for doing the right thing by expelling him as an instructor. A few sheeple, for what ever reasons, are jumping on the bash PADI bandwagon when PADI had nothing to do with this incident. Hey, I'm all for standards reform. I am far more interested in developing responsible instructors who have situational awareness and don't break current standards. More important than DSD ratios are CESAs. More standards are broken by instructors trying to conduct CESAs than any other skill. There are more injuries to instructors caused by CESAs than any other skill. In addition, CESAs set some bad examples. It teaches students that bounce diving ain't so bad. Heck, their instructors are doing them constantly. It also stresses escape over proper and prudent planning. Just like I won't DSDs, I just won't do CESAs. I won't teach OW for an agency that requires them either.

 

[The Chairman]

How do the instructors get caught?

The sad part is that there had been a number of complaints about this program over the years. The camp should have interceded at some point. No agency has the wherewithal to do as you suggest. Perhaps C-Cards should cost a lot more to fund this? I'm OK with that, but would the customer be so willing?