An Attempt at Understanding DIR

[Cave Diver]

As opposed to your contributions?

Such as?

 

[joker31]

First off I am not a DIR diver.

I saw this thread was new and had a lot of action so I jumped in to have a see. To be honest a lot of you make me feel a better about DIR now. Now like some others have said I can only speak about DIR from what I have seen/heard first hand. A lot of the DIR guys around here are "dive snobs". One example: We were at Lake Travis in Austin getting ready to dive at Mansfield Dam. There were two tables under a pavilion. These two guys had one table, my buddy and I took the other.
We started putting our gear together and we started BSing with the other guys. "Where you from", "Where have you dove", "What are you guys planning to do today"...... No big deal. Then they both started making smarta$$ comments about how our gear was setup. To make a long story short (too late) we agreeded to disagree.
I thought all DIR guys were like this. Because thats the only ones I've talked to. Now looking back, chances are I have talked to a ton of DIR guys. The conversation just never went there. Thus I didn't know they were DIR. I think this is why you guys get a bad name. The two outspoken guys..... So to all of you here.... I'm sorry for what I have said to others about you guys!

 

[AndyNZ]

LOL

Even though most of the tenets have nothing to do with OW?

The tenets, or the details? The exact details of where a hose goes, or whether clips should be brass or stainless..... well the relevance to an OW course is low.

But, an OW course graduate should have "a well thought out equipment configuration". The "gauges shouldn't dangle" is just a detail, but it relates back to the need to think about your kit.

I stand by my personal beleif - PADI is the most DIR training agency out there (they just don't know it yet!).

 

[AndyNZ]

I thought all DIR guys were like this. Because thats the only ones I've talked to. Now looking back, chances are I have talked to a ton of DIR guys. The conversation just never went there. Thus I didn't know they were DIR. I think this is why you guys get a bad name. The two outspoken guys..... So to all of you here.... I'm sorry for what I have said to others about you guys!

Not far from the truth! Every year when I was at high school, our headmaster would gives the same start of year speech - 25 years later I can still remember some of it, including the line "The destructive minority will ruin things for the constructive majority".

Here in NZ, we've been struggling to push water uphill in the last couple of years to change the perception of DIR. The previous exponent was a really nice guy, but perhaps overly zealous in his interpretation of what DIR is all about. For example, he insisted that all divers needed to have a PFO test before joining the DIR club. He threw people out of his club if they dared dive with non-DIR divers. His most ridiculous antics caused huge issues - a solo rebreather diver (also a world leader on hyperbaric medicine, and one of the most accomplished technical divers around - Simon Mitchell) took a fabulous picture of two guys who were in perfect trim, with scooters, just looking brilliant - it should have been the biggest advert for DIR when it ended up on the cover of a dive magaizine. Instead, he threw them out of his club on the basis they were in the water at the same time as a solo rebreather diver........ which is just plain nuts.

There are a lot of people who seem to take this attitude with DIR - the only thing I can say is that there a lot of people who just get on and do their diving. And all the GUE instructors I know are very modest, very capable divers who aren't at all rabid.

 

[Peter Guy]

Even though most of the tenets have nothing to do with OW?

But most of the tenets DO have to do with good diving practices! Good diving is good diving regardless of where it is done.

 

[Thalassamania]

Let me share with you an exchange from a year ago that I had with Dan Volker here on SB:

The original idea on getting DIR out, had nothing to do with GUE---GUE did not exist in the early days...Go back to around 1988 ( I am not sure exactly, but this is around the time). No one used helium then--it was a devil gas. George was doing deep adventure dives, and ran into me on a spearfishing trip on the hydro. He liked my diving skiils and attitude, and got me diving with him, Bill Mee, Robert Carmichael, and several other of his friends. At this time, George was a strong diver, but if you compared him to the oldtimers doing deep spearfishing dives, the basic skill sets were not far off. After a couple of months of deep dives, spearfishing on deep wrecks, deep reefs, etc, George disappeared. We heard he was diving with some cave guys in North Florida...Parker Turner, and Sheck Exily in particular. We did not see him for many months, and then suddenly he showed up on a 290 foot wreck dive. His ability to move throughout tiny passages, and and hang like he was attached to something was shocking to us. Mind blowing. None of the oldtimers had ever seen any thing like what George was doing. And this was just the beginning. He could suddenly swim shocking faster than he had before, leaving everyone else far behind except me ( competitive cyclist at the time)...This would not occur on deep dives, but on lobster dives closer to 90 feet deep. He insisted on all of us being in "REAL" buddy teams ( which had been true before his cave time, but now was intense.)We saw his gear was slicing through the water, anihilating the performance of our gear. Once in a while he would bring scooters, and several of us, donning Georges New gear configuration, had the thrill of covering huge distance on his scooters, as well as being able to effortlessly swim much faster than before( ie., cover more distance with less air consumption).

A few years or so later, George was running the WKPP, and enforced the streamlined configuration, buddy skills, and all the things that had worked to keep the WKPP from losing lives on enormous penetrations into Wakulla. Use of helium was a big one, for anything over 100 feet.

Soon, after 1995 the exploits and world records were spreading over the internet, notably on the Tech list and cavers list, hosted by aquanaut. Deaths to to behaviors George new to be dangerous, were blowing his mind, so he asked me to help push this out on the 2 lists, as well as rec.scuba ( and back in the early days of the mid to late 90's, rec.scuba was a huge influence in diving all over the world. George coined DIR..Doing it Right, knowing that an easy way to be heard in a large media, is to have a radical idea that begs to be discussed..DIR was such an idea, and George used his WWF wrestling personna to recieve far more publicity for free, than any of the fledgling tech agencies could even pay for.

One of my jobs, was to introduce DIR ideas to recreational divers..Help them to learn for themselves. We put up many articles on the interenet, and George did DIR demos all over the world. This was NOT for personal gain--it was George on a mission not to lose more divers to stupid dive behaviors or gear configurations. The fact that each of us were called on many times to perform deep water body recoveries on people who had been sold a bill of goods, by and unscrupulous instructor, would constantly recharge our resolve.

In these early years of DIR, we liked people learning DIR through the internet, and would dive with people who had learned, and wanted to dive with us to see George's DIR in person. This happened alot, again George did this because he liked mentoring far more than any training agency out there, and he wanted as much of DIR adopted as possible....but..there was no coolaid....anyone could ask him why, he would show them, and they would either adopt it or not. The vast majority adopted it, but the real success was showing divers why they could not be high drag, why they needed buddy skills and real buddies, why if your buddy runs out of air, its as much your fault as it is his. And there was much more, but this gives you the point.

DIR was originally for SMART, coordinated divers--adventure types, not posers..the kind of person who taught themself how to white water kayak, taught themself how to hangglide...taught themself real adventure skills there whole life, and always did well with it. This is "who" George wanted as a buddy for his team members , or for anyone in the world, once they learned DIR.

DIR is not a coolaid, and there is no brainwashing in DIR itself---DIR is an explanation of how and why--you take what you take.

When Jarrod Jablonski got tired of people begging for a way to learn DIR from an instructor, or a way to learn without joining the WKPP and mentoring with them, he ultimately formed GUE. Jarrod created a brilliant training curriculum, and taught true DIR..but now as an agency, you had to adopt everything , it was no longer teach yourself DIR.

There is still massive information on DIR you can find on the Internet, along with some of the best arguements that clearly define the issues...Aquanaut.com is a great place, where the tech list and cavers is still archived--at least for a short time longer. This is fiery, it gets tempers up, but it formed the basis of DIR as it first got to the internet.
And there are many new DIR websites, with info on virtually any element of diving.
Even my old site, www.sfdj.com , has lots of DIR stuff on it that should in no way sound like cool-aid

DanV

I want to thank Dan for a clear and concise (and first hand) explication of what went on from his vantage point. Everything that he says is true, the only thing that is lacking is a moment spent on GI's incredible ability to paint himself into a corner while convincing himself that because of minor variation and recombination, stirred with a catchy acronym, that he had discovered something brand new.

There where lots of folks who had hit on many of the same solutions, though in different variations and combinations decades earlier (Jim Stewart, Lloyd Austin, Lee Somers, Walt Hendricks Sr. to name a few) and many who were doing a good job of extending the envelope contemporaneously (Rich Pyle, Billy Deans, Parker Turner, Sheck Exley, Jeff Bozanic, Phil Nuytton, Graham Hawkes). Unlike the folks just mentioned I found George to be closed minded and doctrinaire. I was very much put off by his insistence that it was his way and his way only.

In the late 1980s some marine geologists I was working with asked me to look into easily transportable technologies and methodologies that would permit working far below our normal limit of 190 feet and minimal additional risk. This lead to a two year systematic study of what was being done by many groups and individuals to access the depth range between 400 and 500 feet (and even down to 1,000 and 3,000 feet).

George was the only one that was uncooperative. In fact, he was downright abusive. We had two phone conversations and exchanged a series of e-mails, and I'd had enough. Now I'd take the blame for this, save for the fact that none of the others I approached behaved that way.

In the final analysis it was all of our loss, my view is that George's demeaning attitude prevented a critical synthesis between what he had brought together, and what these other folks had done, and were doing, that I think could have spread throughout the diving world and, in the end, established a new paradigm of diving training, practice and safety; rather than just producing a niche agency, with far less influence than it might have.

Thanks for your post Thal,
With all the larger than life characters you have dove with in the past--the big names you mentioned, and many others I am sure you dove with....I am sure you have seen a number of these people who don't play well with other big name divers--each thinks they are right, and will not give in. George was/is a character beyond belief, to his "immediate friends". And then there was the WWF stuff, as well as the sick feeling in his stomach--that never went away--that Scheck was killed by the diving behaviors and what George considered foolish planning and preparation..Sheck had been a great friend of George, and I think his religious fervor had everything to do with what he blamed for Scheck's death.

I can certainly imagine the scenario you did not enjoy with him--how his way or nothing was it...this was part the reason above, and part WKPP credo-that there is a WKPP way for a huge dive, and no deviation is allowed. It gave them an awesome safety record for big dives, but made him impossible to work with in your scenario.

Beyond all the vitriol George created..and yes, you can ignore the vitriol, any DIR interested diver can learn a path that eveloves "some DIR" into their diving, via the tech list on aquanaut. searching by author for Trey or George will pull up massive numbers of discussions that would answer VIRTUALLY EVERY DIR question that has ever been asked on this board. It would not be a coolaid approach, it would be a "take what makes sense to you approach". But George had so many great and specific reasons for each and every thing DIR, that most of the time, newcomers liked everything....unless of course, he pissed them off too much

One of our greatest feats was getting our arch nemesis on rec.scuba... MHK , to "try" a DIR dive with our group in South Florida. MHK was a posterboy Stroke, and a really smart guy. We had been having epic battles on rec.scuba for months, and finally MHK said, FINE, I will come dive with you. There was some intense discussion, George had great answers.. I helped "moderate"....and within a couple of days, MHK swithed to DIR. Now he is a GUE instructor . But it illustrates, if you go to the horses mouth, there are perfect answers----it is only cool-aid when you ask someone who does not know the origin of each and every issue. George and Jarrod do, I am sure there are many more GUE people who do, but there are bound to be people who just accepted without asking...Just remember, in the original DIR demos we did, it was all about a newcomer asking ANYTHING, and getting a specific reason. And again, our job was to just make them as close to DIR as we could, and this made George forget some of his demons I think.

And that's why the DIR movement got started.

I do appreciate your reply ... both the content and the positive tone. I'd like to point out that all the "name" divers I mentioned (and many more) all got along and worked together, over the course of many years, with none of the "WWF stuff" as you call it. It may be a regional thing, but we never thought of any of them (or us) as anything special (not diving gods, not larger life, not "name" divers, just Diving Safety Officers, and other people, with whom we all worked as part of our normal duties), and they didn't think of themselves as anything special either. Whilst y'all may have been amazed at what GI was able to do in the water, I'd like to suggest (without appearing too wrapped up in what you might incorrectly perceive to be the ego of it all) that most all of the people I mention come from a community with a long, long tradition of expecting the kind of water skills you describe (with the exception of the deepness) of all its members ... even the most newly minted diver. Effortless propulsion, perfect trim, pinpoint buoyancy control, impeccable buddy manners, a "simple is best" skill-based approach to equipment ... I learned all that from Lloyd Austin back in 1972 and I must admit that part of my problem with George may have been my amusement at his clearly expressed opinion that had discovered these things. Kind of like Columbus "discovering" America. George's a good solid diver, but within the community that I hail from, that's about where he rates, except on physical condition (but I do know some pudgy professors who can out swim, and out freedive, you, me and George).

There really were (maybe still are to a degree) two very different diving worlds one on the West Coast and one in Florida. In my experience most of the Floridians who were competent divers, only saw themselves and PADI, and held the rest of the diving world in the same contempt that they held PADI. They made the highly incorrect assumption that all of the rest of the diving world was organized uniformly around what they liked to call, "PADI Poodle Jacket diving." That simply was not (and is not) the case.

I have a great deal of respect for the accomplishments of the WKPP (though I think it would have been interesting to try the idea that Phil Nuytton and I have of using a pair of graphite autonomous and swimable Newt Suits with detachable thrusters and battery packs in combination with small ROVs). Frankly, had I been faced with the responsibility for carryout out the WKPP's mission, I'd have done so with the same rigidity and attention to detail, though I would have acknowledged that there are often many good approaches to a problem, that there often is not one best solution, but that standardization adds to safety and and sometimes arbitrary decisions need to be made, tough patoties, I'm in charge. I can't say that I took a very flexible approach to our diving procedures when we were working up against the arctic ice four days steam to helo evacuation range.

I did not bother with things like the tech list on aquanaut, I was far too busy at the time with operations (you can guess that I've slowed down a bit in recent years

). I just wrote GI and the WKPP off and went on my way. I really did not give them much of another though till I joined here and was left scratching my head by what I thought were rather amateurish and sophomoric discussions over what is and is not "DIR." The final straw for me was being informed that gluing a nose block in a mask to effect easier ear equalization (rather standard practice, when needed, in the commercial, military and scientific worlds) was not DIR, because it was an "equipment solution to a skill problem."

(continued)

 

[Thalassamania]

(continued)

I went to the horses' mouth, and all I found, unfortunately, was the horse's other end. Perhaps, in part, it was my lack of familiarity with the Florida situation. Additionally, what George was describing as the final outcome differed from what we were already doing only in detail and the level of adaptability. Looking back I'm quite sorry that I did not persevere through as several suggested I should, but at the time I was looking for things to take and use, and not seeing the big picture of the right combination being larger than the sum of the parts.

When Dan explains where it all comes from, it's pretty clear. Unfortunately there is still a GI III residue that's floating about. Where I talk about the nose block, that was in response to a question from TS&M:

Hands free ear clearing is anatomy dependent. I cannot do it. I wish I could (and I've tried all the described techniques I could find) because it would reduce task loading on descent a ton.
​

To which I replied:

I must apologize, I thought most folks were familiar with this, but then I can see this may just be something that just the commercial and research divers know about. It's one of the first things that you master with most full face masks (esp. Band Masks) or Helmets.

There are equipment supported methods for those who can't not manage the, "use the force Luke" approach to ear clearing. Here are two: one is to wear a loose set of nose plugs. Gentle exhalation will go past, but more forceful exhalation will raise the pressure in the pharynx and equalize (you MUST stay well ahead of the need, even the slightest edema around the Eustachian tubes will prevent this.). Another approach (the one I use for those days that I can't "use the force") is to build up a neoprene nose block in the nose pocket of my mask, My nostrils are complete occluded by the block and if I exhale gently the air goes by, but if I exhale more forcefully (or push my nose, well the nose pocket of the mask) against anything (forearm, instrument housing, back of my hand, etc.) I can close off my nostrils and equalize. Again, stay ahead of the need, try and keep slight positive pressure in your pharynx all the way down.
​

An answer that I was excoriated for on at least three different boards comments such as:

I can sorta clear my ears hands free, not reliably at least. But I would not put a peice of neoprene in my mask, having to remove my mask to deal with it if it were to come loose would be a pita. And would likely happen at a bad time knowing Murphy.
​

and:

it's an interesting idea but it sounds decidedly out of place in a DIR thread to me... Nothing minimalist about it....
​

and:

I see no need for such solutions

at least in this forum. However, some people can done it without any additional tool especialy when descending slowly.
​

and:

Ok, listen guys I don't want to start anything here. I just think that sticking bits of neoprene up your nose before the dive doesn't sound like something the DIR masters are likely to see as a brilliant addition to the DIR portfolio.

That's not to say that it doesn't work or that there is no application for it....just that I don't think that the DIR superstars are going to get in line to buy it.
​

and:

It certainly isn't DIR to do this. You are adding extra equipment to make up for something that could be solved with skill and practice.

What happens if the pad comes unstuck? What about your backup mask? What about your team's backup masks? What happens if you give a team member a backup mask with this pad added when they are not expecting it?

If you are worried about trying to clear your ears while doing other tasks, there are other ways of doing it other than by using the valsalva manouver.
​

and:

Personally I'd have to say a person having difficulty with equalizing teqniques while task loaded may lack the experience for the given dive.
​

until I posted an e-mail I got from Peter Steinhoff:

I can't see any problems with that modification. I sometimes use a similar technique because I let my mask slide up a bit so that the nose pocket is close to my nostrils and I can to some extent equalize the same way.

One has to remember that equalizing is different for different divers. Some can do it by just wiggling their jaws and some have to use a proper valsalva or other technique. With your modification one would just have added another way of doing it in addition to the rest - another tool in the toolbox so to speak.

To keep in mind though is that we in general strive for ambidextrous operation of our equipment, even if we have a default like light in the left hand and scooter in the right. A proficient diver should be capable of riding a scooter both left and right handed, be able to use left or right hand for operating the wing, holding the primary light, reels etc. As long as the mask "modification" is not used as an excuse to NOT develop these ambidextrous skills there are no problems. To use a favorite buzz word in the dir community we could say that we still need to be "thinking divers".

Feel free to post my response wherever you see fit.
​

... and all the critics, almost in lock step, shut up. So the problem clearly is not the "upper crust" of the DIR Divers, but rather a very loud and aggressive minority that are looking for absolute answers to what are, in reality, rather relativistic questions, sort of like Rocky Horror Picture Show: "I'll relieve the cause, but not the symptoms."

 

[AndyNZ]

So the problem clearly is not the "upper crust" of the DIR Divers, but rather a very loud and aggressive minority that are looking for absolute answers to what are, in reality, rather relativistic questions, sort of like Rocky Horror Picture Show: "I'll relieve the cause, but not the symptoms."

I'd say that was a reasonable statement of affairs.

 

[Kingpatzer]

To the OP, yes the term "DIR" is contentious - but most of the angst is very much on the internet. Give you local GUE or UTD instructor a call and have a chat with them

There is not a local GUE instructor, and as I've mentioned, I've met the local DIR contingent, and they are the biggest horses rear-ends you can imagine. I didn't find them open minded, nice or any other positive adjective. Which is one of the reasons I'm posting here.

I see a huge disconnect between the average poster here and my own personal experience. I went to read the GUE materials, and found the materials to have much of the same attitude as I experienced in person (not as vile, nor as much, but still saw the under currents as it were). I come here to ask about it.

For the most part (except those who insist on either calling me a troll or claiming those I have met must simply not be in anyway really associated with DIR), my experience seems to be the direct opposite of the rest of the world -- I don't find much of the internet grief that so many seem to complain about, rather I find that the people I've met in person are the problem.

Now I've been told "oh, that book is 10 years old, you have to read it in that context," and my immediate response is "then why the heck not update it?!" Surely folks are aware of the concept of a 2nd edition!

Like I noted, in reading the books I've found a lot of good information there. But I also find comments that lead me to wonder if the attitudes I experience don't have some higher up source (if not intended that way). I appreciate Thalassamania posting his experience, it seems to speak to that same sort of experience, and perhaps the source is historical.http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/members/thalassamania.html

 

[ScubaSam]

There is not a local GUE instructor, and as I've mentioned, I've met the local DIR contingent, and they are the biggest horses rear-ends you can imagine. I didn't find them open minded, nice or any other positive adjective. Which is one of the reasons I'm posting here.

I see a huge disconnect between the average poster here and my own personal experience. I went to read the GUE materials, and found the materials to have much of the same attitude as I experienced in person (not as vile, nor as much, but still saw the under currents as it were). I come here to ask about it.

For the most part (except those who insist on either calling me a troll or claiming those I have met must simply not be in anyway really associated with DIR), my experience seems to be the direct opposite of the rest of the world -- I don't find much of the internet grief that so many seem to complain about, rather I find that the people I've met in person are the problem.

Now I've been told "oh, that book is 10 years old, you have to read it in that context," and my immediate response is "then why the heck not update it?!" Surely folks are aware of the concept of a 2nd edition!

Like I noted, in reading the books I've found a lot of good information there. But I also find comments that lead me to wonder if the attitudes I experience don't have some higher up source (if not intended that way). I appreciate Thalassamania posting his experience, it seems to speak to that same sort of experience, and perhaps the source is historical.

Kingpatzer - From the other thread you know I took GUE Fundies recently and that book you're readiing was not part of the required reading material for the class. All the reading material for class had none of the attitude you're finding in the book (which I have not read).

I did come across a few DIR divers on SB when I joined SB and they turned me off of DIR so I can relate to how you feel about your local DIR community. It's now a year later, met some other DIR divers who are not horse's arse, met a great GUE instructor, went through their Fundies class and can assure you that I did not run across any of the attitude I first ran into when I first joined SB. Every group has their share of arse holes and if I painted an entire group with the same brush I would have missed out on one of the best chapter in my diving life.

Have you considered contacting the closest GUE instructor to discuss the cost for the class and his/her travel expenses, then get a small group of interested local divers together to take the class and split the cost? I feel strongly that you will get a better understanding about GUE and their teachings from the inside than you would from the outside.