Am considering getting combo BCD inflator/Octopus

[ianw2]

First off, I do not use one.

Now, the chief complaints about these units are:

1) adjusting the buoyancy with the octo/inflator in my mouth
2) buddies don’t know what to use in an OOA situation
3) to much task loading in an emergency to use safely

These are valid comments.

1) there are other dump valves that the octo dump on most BCDs. Leran to use them. The inflator dump valve has a chord in it like every other inflator dump valve. Pulling on the chord with the octo/inflator in your mouth is relatively easy.

2) if you do a proper buddy check and go through the gear, your buddy will know exactly where to go to find his air supply…your primary. This is not an outlandish thing to expect. The Tech/DIR community has been donating primaries and keeping secondary for a good few years, now.

3) if you wait until all he|| breaks loose to try out this new configuration, the task loading will be far too much. How about some practice with the equipment in easy dive/pool/training situations first?

My big complaint about the octo/inflator combo is that I don’t want my back up regulator being bounced around with my BCD when I'm not diving. I’d rather have it in my reg bag, particularly when traveling.

The whole inflator/regulator unit could be removed from the BCD, but this leaves a gaping hole in the shoulder of the BCD for who knows what to crawl in. It also prevents keeping some air in the BCD bladder to prevent the bladder from sticking to itself.

Aqualung has come up with a solution to this. The Air3 features a removable regulator portion on the inflator hose. That way, the regulator portion can be quickly disconnected from the inflator hose and stored in the reg bag instead of with the BCD.

If you do decide to go this route, check the Air3 from Aqualung and, as TandSM suggests, go with a longer primary hose to be able to share it more easily in a true OOA event.

There are advantages to both configurations. You’ll need to try both before you can make your judgment.

Ian

 

[halocline]

This has been one of the most often discussed subjects on this forum, and if you search you'll find all sorts of opinions. I don't have a huge objection to them, but I don't think they accomplish anything either. The idea that your set up will be more streamlined because you have one fewer hose is silly. Instead, you have a much longer than necessary inflator hose with a much larger than necessary inflator mechanism. Since you use the inflator hose and mechanism several times on each dive, making these thing bulkier and more difficult to use (even a little) adds up to much inconvenience in the water. Add to this the fact that sharing air with a 29" primary hose is MUCH less convenient than with a 40" octo hose, and you come to the conclusion that in actual diving situations, the octo/inflator has some serious shortcomings. Granted, you can put your primary on a longer hose, but you should then re-rout with a swivel or angle fitting at the 2nd stage, or use a 5ft hose routed in the quasi-tech manner.

Then there's the whole issue of BC venting while breathing off the thing. Sure, you can do it, but it's not as easy, and usually complicated by the fact that you have an OOA diver hanging off your short primary hose. Why create the potential problem? There simply is no real advantage to them. The idea that "well, you know where it is" is extra dumb, because of course it's easy to clip off an octo so you also "know where it is."

Like so many "innovations" of the recreational dive gear industry, this is one that looks nice in the dive shop where un-informed purchasing decisions are made, and then proves to be disappointing in the water. Just think how different recreational BCs would be if people compared them in OW rather than in a dive shop.

 

[sytech]

Just wanted to say "thanks" to everyone for their very useful feedback on this particular topic.

Based upon the very intelligent and well thought out comments, I came to the conclusion that there was much more than merely "personal preference" involved and that there are many rational reasons for NOT getting the combo BCD inflator/Octopus. So much so that as I was reading the thread I switched browser windows and ordered a Zeagle Envoy and a Zeagle octopus. Case closed and no pun intended.

On a related matter I do think the emphasis on helping your "buddy" is misplaced and unrealistic. Here's why:

I took the SDI "Solo Diving" course last year. The best and most realistic diving course I have taken---by far. The basic premise is that the "buddy system" is a relic from the "old days" and can be more problematic than helpful. The problem is not so much the "buddy system" per se but the "buddy" themselves especially given that so much recreational diving is done at resorts where you are buddied up with someone who may be barely competent and/or saturated with alcohol after sitting at the "all you can drink" bar the evening before. I now tell the divemaster that I will be with him (and keep your eye on him or her too as they might have been sitting at that same bar last night. I've seen many examples of less than competent or unprofessional behavior on their part-twice just recently off Akumal on the Mayan Riviera of Mexico).

We can dive next to or with others of course but we must always be aware that we had better be prepared to save our own asses before looking for help from your "buddy" who has suddenly moved 20 feet away or who is absorbed in trying to take a photo.

Unless you know your buddy and you are both at similar experience levels, having a buddy you are paired with by some marginally competent (if even that) "scuba dude" at some dive resort could be more of a problem than a solution. There are other exceptions of course but as long as you are properly trained in Solo Diving and have an OOA supply as a backup you are "probably" safer diving solo.

Anyone interested should get "Solo Diving-The Art of Underwater Self-Sufficiency" by Robert Von Maier. I have a ton of diving books and this 100 page book is my favorite. Besides making a very common-sense case against "buddy-diving" he author quotes very prominent people in the Dive Industry and their comments on the "buddy system" and it's failings and the fact that is provides a false sense of security.

Getting back to the combo BCD inflator/Octopus issue, my disinclination to rely on a "buddy" makes it all the more absurd to buy equipment based upon my "buddy's" possible needs. And as so many of you have pointed out, the combo BCD inflator/Octopus is fraught with it's own considerable problems.

Thanks again,


Sy










QUOTE=mattboy;3602680]This has been one of the most often discussed subjects on this forum, and if you search you'll find all sorts of opinions. I don't have a huge objection to them, but I don't think they accomplish anything either. The idea that your set up will be more streamlined because you have one fewer hose is silly. Instead, you have a much longer than necessary inflator hose with a much larger than necessary inflator mechanism. Since you use the inflator hose and mechanism several times on each dive, making these thing bulkier and more difficult to use (even a little) adds up to much inconvenience in the water. Add to this the fact that sharing air with a 29" primary hose is MUCH less convenient than with a 40" octo hose, and you come to the conclusion that in actual diving situations, the octo/inflator has some serious shortcomings. Granted, you can put your primary on a longer hose, but you should then re-rout with a swivel or angle fitting at the 2nd stage, or use a 5ft hose routed in the quasi-tech manner.

Then there's the whole issue of BC venting while breathing off the thing. Sure, you can do it, but it's not as easy, and usually complicated by the fact that you have an OOA diver hanging off your short primary hose. Why create the potential problem? There simply is no real advantage to them. The idea that "well, you know where it is" is extra dumb, because of course it's easy to clip off an octo so you also "know where it is."

Like so many "innovations" of the recreational dive gear industry, this is one that looks nice in the dive shop where un-informed purchasing decisions are made, and then proves to be disappointing in the water. Just think how different recreational BCs would be if people compared them in OW rather than in a dive shop.[/QUOTE]

 

[RAWalker]

Seems to me that you did quite a bit of research on solo diving and I applaud you on that it is a worthy practice to be self sufficiant.
As for the problems associated with combo inflator/octos you really didn't do enough research there. While there are some inherent design limits and additional factors to consider in their use they vary from model to model.

I'll try to address a few that I'm aware of but lets be within reason.
In diving many possible situations can arise and since we are talking life support we try to limit the risks with our equipment being aware of statistics and probabilities.
Within the relm of Basic recreational diving. Single tank, single first stage regulator with an alternate second stage. Your redundancy is your buddy but your primary responsibility is yourself. Your buddy is secondary.
Your gear is for your safety and comfort and a rescue is secondary.
Having said that we can proceed with a discussion of Alternate Second stage regulators.
With these inflator hose mounted styles there is a major difference to a standard Octo and that is...They are for your use! Not your buddy.
There are a few different types:

Those that replace the inflator and those that are inline with the LP hose.
Of Those that replace the inflator the hose inflator hose often stays the stock hose with the inflator controls removed and replaced with the inflator second stage.
Most of these regs are very small in sized and low in weight and Do Not make the inflator hose assembly any longer. I'm a average sized male and do not need it longer and wouldn't unless I was significantly larger. That is the first myth to be corrected.

Next lets consider a OOA emergency. Let not heap on anything extra like Deco or multiple failures. After all we are recreationally diving. The chances of multiple failures should be very low and we don't do Deco.

Since that is the case you start to share air and want to surface safely. You dump your BC air and start your swim up. To dump you have a choice use the button on the inflator while you are breathing or reach for a dump valve. It isn't so hard either way. (I know I have both Sherwood and Aquatec units and they are easily managed.) Your buddy will stay close because he/she has no choice so you can use your dump valves and even reach theirs. You shouldn't need to add air until your at the surface for buoyancy and that can be done easy enough manually or with the power inflator which you don't need to locate it is in your mouth already. Myth 2 buoyancy control is difficult. Nope, sorry, not a problem so much for myth 2

Next myth, you're to close to your buddy. Ok you got me here it's true but guess what? You are supposed to be close during OOA with the supply diver in control. This is an emergency situation for your buddy. You are giving him what he needs (air) You are supposed to take control of the dive and make a safe accent. Hey I learned to grab the buddy's BC and hold on. My Primary second stage hose is long enough for that! Yes, it's no fun but it can be done in an emergency. So in effect being to close is a myth also it just shouldn't apply.

So what is the allure of the breathable inflator?

If we disregard the minor resistance in the water of the extra octo hose compared to the combo then there is still an increased risk of it being caught or hung up on something. Then there is the increased risk of it being knocked loose and dangling thereby disrupting the environment and again getting caught or hung up. Also if knocked loose it may be harder for your buddy to find. He may grab your primary second stage and you'll need to find it.
The combo doesn't have those risks and is always close at hand.

What's the risk?
Same as an inflator, you may have a run away inflator and need to disconnect the LP hose. This would kill the supply to the octo also. Guess what your dive is over anyway signal your buddy and start your accent breathing on you primary second stage.
Some combo units are hard to manually inflate or require a special technique to do so.

 

[Oxy]

I'm not even NEW yet but have been researching what equipment I will want when the time comes.
I would like a integrated octo-inflator IF. that is IF It has the same properties as my primary. BECAUSE!
2 people have provided personal OOA experiences being. The last thing they both saw was a hand jerking the 1st from their mouths. They now had to locate their OWN second as the panicked diver now had their first-
I guess at most any depth when you suddenly NEED air you just don't waste time looking for a 2nd.
I now want a 2nd that is not just a "alternate" but a GOOD alternate. and would like it to be right there where my hand can find it in a viz out.

Sorry about using 1st & 2nd instead of Primary & altrnate. did I say I was vary new?

 

[TSandM]

A good quality second stage bungied on a necklace and directly below your chin is a very reassuring thing when you are without a primary regulator. I've had a couple of falls on entry, where the fact that I don't even have to grope around my chest looking for an inflator hose has been really nice.

 

[Oxy]

A good quality second stage bungied on a necklace and directly below your chin is a very reassuring thing when you are without a primary regulator. I've had a couple of falls on entry, where the fact that I don't even have to grope around my chest looking for an inflator hose has been really nice.

It's almost enough to make me want the same octo, as my primary. But since the ride would be over, "a good quality second" is first on my alternate list.

 

[Beachlover]

It's almost enough to make me want the same octo, as my primary. But since the ride would be over, "a good quality second" is first on my alternate list.

Hey Oxy, you're all over the boards! You sure are doing a lot of research on gear, you should be getting your choices narrowed down,huh? Anyway,did'nt get to meet you at Veterans tonight, maybe next time.

 

[Oxy]

Hey Oxy, you're all over the boards! You sure are doing a lot of research on gear, you should be getting your choices narrowed down,huh? Anyway,did'nt get to meet you at Veterans tonight, maybe next time.

should I change my name to "pinball"?
the only thing missing is the money, I know what I want, where to get it, and some of it is ON SALEEEEE.

 

[Beachlover]

should I change my name to "pinball"?
the only thing missing is the money, I know what I want, where to get it, and some of it is ON SALEEEEE.

Nah,Oxy seems to fit. Smarter that you do the research than to buy blindly.You know that if you miss a sale price or just want to try and get a better deal, some dive shops will match or beat other prices to get your business FWIW.