Am considering getting combo BCD inflator/Octopus

[sytech]

Was wondering what the current opinion is of these combination units. I think the term is "safe second"?

Would surely like to have one less hose but at what cost (if any) to convenience and safety.

I notice that neither Mares nor Cressi-Sub even offers this type of device and am wondering why.

Any comments are appreciated.

Thanks,

Sy

 

[herman]

Lots of divers like them but personally I don't care for them. In a real OOA situation I am most likely going to have to deal with the other divers buoyancy as well as my own. The last thing I want to do is to have to remove my reg from my mouth to deflate my BC.
I also mix and match regs and BC's fairly often which would require me to swap hoses around to match regs with BC's, currently all my regs will fit all my BC's.

 

[driftwood]

Safe seconds are becoming much more common in the states and shops are pushing them (my LDS included and we bought in when we got certified). Personally, I use the Atomic SS1 as my safe second and agree with Herman's concerns.

I see three problems with their use.

First, in a real out of air emergency, I want to grab my buddy's alternate to save my a##. None of this training bs with hand signals, both of us will have a very little time to make things happen. Most people around the world still use an alternate regulator as a backup looking for the yellow hose/reg in their time of need. Seems to me that is not the time to train a frighten buddy on the proper use of a safe second.

Second, the safe second also includes the controls for your bc that you are most familiar with controlling assents. When you are using the safe second that set of controls are in your mouth and you need to have a plan to use it for both duties or be very comfortable with the other air release valves on your bc. This is especially true if you spooked buddy in breathing from your safe second.

Third, I like my own gear when I travel. Right now there are three (3) different connector sizes associated with safe seconds. My concern is that if my bc or reg bites the dust, what hoops will I have to jump through to continue diving with what remains of my gear. If I ditch the safe second, a standard lp bc connector will work with my bc all around the world. Reg take a "powder", no problem. BC takes a "powder", maybe a bigger problem if it is not weight integrated.

All those problems aside, both my wife and me use safe seconds. That is the type of gear we trained on, we know the problems and how to deal with them (we hope!). Our gear is regularly maintained to lessen the chance of equipment failure.

Would I make the same decision now, no. The benefit of losing a hose is not worth the extra expense or complications.

Plan for failure, do what you can to prevent it, and you will be a better diver.

 

[mruseless]

Lots of divers like them but personally I don't care for them. In a real OOA situation I am most likely going to have to deal with the other divers buoyancy as well as my own. The last thing I want to do is to have to remove my reg from my mouth to deflate my BC.
I also mix and match regs and BC's fairly often which would require me to swap hoses around to match regs with BC's, currently all my regs will fit all my BC's.

Ditto that. Tried one, hated it. I liked the idea of one less hose, but the one I tried (Air2) made it difficult to share air since you have to give your primary to your buddy. To me, that just makes it more likely that you will have 2 divers under stress instead of one. Also, I use a custom mouthpiece so it wouldn't be comfortable for a buddy, although that's not a big thing.

Combined with the added task loading of having to operate your BCD in a way you are not accustomed to... seems like a bad idea. In an emergency I want to make things simpler if possible, not more difficult.

One more thing. When traveling (I only dive on vacation), I carry on my regs but check everything else. That way if my gear gets delayed or lost, I still have my regs. I can always rent a BCD and will still have an octo.

E

 

[redrover]

Was wondering what the current opinion is of these combination units. I think the term is "safe second"?

Would surely like to have one less hose but at what cost (if any) to convenience and safety.

I notice that neither Mares nor Cressi-Sub even offers this type of device and am wondering why.

Any comments are appreciated.

Thanks,

Sy

I try to avoid suggesting use the search button but this question has been one of the banes of my time here. Ya oughtta do a search.

In short they are a hot topic, a real love ‘em or hate ‘em thing.

I have the Atomic SS1 and like it very well thank you, for my diving.

I do like my second is always handy – but there are other ways to get that.

It is a more expensive route (The Atomic) but you get what you pay for and I wanted an excellent second regulator. Used it an entire dive and forgot all about it actually.

I like the less hose aspect myself but frankly it does seem a bit nitpicky.

I find it more convenient, don’t operate my BC any different and have no problem donating my primary – why I wanted a very good second. An acceptable level of safety, switching doesn’t bother me. YMMV, would be a good thing to try and see if it works for you before investing.

If you’re heading technical – don’t get one unless you’re planning to keep a separate recreational set of gear.

 

[Colliam7]

Would surely like to have one less hose but at what cost (if any) to convenience and safety.

As others have suggested it is truly a matter of personal preference, and the discussions are somewhat animated. I reside in the camp of those who don't find the 'benefit' of one less hose to be worth the incovnenience (to me) of that configuration. If you do a SB search, try using 'Air2' as the keyword, rather than 'safe second' and you might get a little more info, including a fairly recent thread on this very topic. You will also see a very long running (550+ posts) thread on most regretted gear purchases, and the combo octo/inflator ranks fairly high on that list, among those that don't like it.

 

[diverrobs]

I did practice with my AirXS II inflator/Octo in the pool after I decided to get it instead of anouther secondary(alternate). During practice with my buddy it became apparent that trying to control bouyancy with the inflator/deflator while trying to breath off the same device was much more difficult than I thought. It is especially hard with a dry suit because you need to put your arm up to vent air from the drysuit and you can't do this while you are pulling on the inflator hose (to shoulder dump) or you will pull your octo out of your mouth (by pulling up on it). I really recommend getting a dedicated octo, one hose really is not a big deal (I went and got one for $85.00). If you are cold water diving you are going to have alot of other stuff that is way more anoying on you than the hose and octo (camera, light, pony bottle etc etc.). Cold water divers I have noticed look like creatures out of horror movies, stuff haning off every spot they can find to hang something off. In NJ you are probably going to want a drysuit so I can't stress enought that a conventional alternate octo is the way to go.

 

[sytech]

redrover,

I considered the search button here as you suggested but because new products or modifications are being introduced all the time and because there are lots of places I've already researched I thought asking the question was appropriate. As you say they are a "hot topic" and opinions are in flux.



A search yielding comments from only last year might seem dated if you read the articles from mags like Scuba Diving and Undercurrent both of which I consider authoritative and having much less bias than Sport Diver which is a PADI publication, the latter publication having less credibility with me because of that org's very aggressive marketing orientation. Anyone ready for Cert course for "Amniotic Fluid Diver" from PADI

7 Backup Breathers - Scuba Diving Magazine



Regarding your comment:

"I like the less hose aspect myself but frankly it does seem a bit nitpicky"

Diving is fraught with all kinds of nitpicky-ness, some less than rational like making an issue out of some little toy hanging from a "D" ring claiming that that will cause "drag" or the type of diver that claims "uber" streamlining in every detail and alleged safety concern for every component of their gear (which should be the case of course) but was at the bar till 2:00 a.m. and arrives at the dive boat at 8:00 a.m. with enough residual alcohol in their blood to be a genuine risk for DCS and worse.

Anyway, I happen to think that one less hose is a tangible benefit in that it eliminates another potential entanglement problem but certainly you and others have made some worthwhile points about the potential problems with them. In your case, Scuba Diving rated the Atomic as the "Best" octo/inflator and the Sherwood Gemini as a "Best Buy".

I am now totally confused!


Sy

I try to avoid suggesting use the search button but this question has been one of the banes of my time here. Ya oughtta do a search.

In short they are a hot topic, a real love ‘em or hate ‘em thing.

I have the Atomic SS1 and like it very well thank you, for my diving.

I do like my second is always handy – but there are other ways to get that.

It is a more expensive route (The Atomic) but you get what you pay for and I wanted an excellent second regulator. Used it an entire dive and forgot all about it actually.



I find it more convenient, don’t operate my BC any different and have no problem donating my primary – why I wanted a very good second. An acceptable level of safety, switching doesn’t bother me. YMMV, would be a good thing to try and see if it works for you before investing.

If you’re heading technical – don’t get one unless you’re planning to keep a separate recreational set of gear.

 

[TSandM]

My husband and I both had integrated octos when we started, and after several practice OOAs, we discarded them.

But, if you do decide to go with the integrated second, my big piece of advice is to put your primary regulator on some type of longer hose, at least 36". There is a reason that an octo hose is usually longer, and that is because donating a regulator on a standard 24" hose is a very uncomfortable procedure.

Cold water divers I have noticed look like creatures out of horror movies, stuff haning off every spot they can find to hang something off.

That is absolutely unnecessary. It is quite possible to dive in cold water and be neat and dangly-free.

 

[Colliam7]

I considered the search button here as you suggested but because new products or modifications are being introduced all the time and because there are lots of places I've already researched I thought asking the question was appropriate. As you say they are a "hot topic" and opinions are in flux.

Nothing wrong at all with bringing up the topic. Those of use who suggested a search IN ADDITION TO raising the topic, were only trying to direct you to additional sources of information and opinions. There really isn't a lot new in the world of combos, despite the marketing hype that manufacturers use, and the fundamental issues have been the same for some time. Number of hoses, possible complications in an OOA situation, PERSONAL PREFERENCE. But, you are probably NOT going to die from either hose entanglement because of having an extra hose, or from an uncontrolled ascent because of buoyancy issues when using the combo in an OOA situation.

A search yielding comments from only last year might seem dated if you read the articles from mags like Scuba Diving and Undercurrent both of which I consider authoritative and having much less bias than Sport Diver which is a PADI publication, the latter publication having less credibility with me because of that org's very aggressive marketing orientation.

Undercurrent in some ways is like ScubaBoard, and you get opinion, and food for thought. I am not sure that a credible case can be made that Scuba Diving is any less 'biased' with regard to equipment than Sport Diver. Good magazine, but reading their equipment 'reviews' often reads like an amalgamation of manufacurer promotional information, despite the attempts at objectivity.

I am now totally confused!

Possibly, because there is no one right answer to the issue of whether to use a combo. Six of one, twelve dozen of the other.