Al Hornsby Resigns

[Scott L]

The sad part is that many manufacturers believe that they would lose business if they took away MAP/MARP. I have yet to hear a retailer comment on how happy they are with MAP/MARP. In fact, a few excel on how to circumvent the process and I have heard some manufacturer's reps teach them how to get around it. It devolves honest business men into becoming used car salesmen or multi-level marketeers! It might be a child of the free market, but it is not representative of freedom in the market place!

Do the contracts make mention of the manufactures allowing LP and the like internet sales and superior buying power?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Did you even read what I said? I have a shop, 3 of them in fact that treat me well. I DO REFER my students to them. I do not advise internet purchases unless what the STUDENT needs or wants is not available locally. There is one shop I do not refer to because he has a habit of badmouthing other instructors and the other shops. He will also try to steal students. I know, I came up through his shop.

If I were in your area would I use you and refer to you? perhaps. Would you allow me use of your pool and pool gear for a nominal fee(nothing) like I get now? Would you allow me to teach the way I want and not interfere with my methods? Would you match internet prices and offer me key man and/or cost plus shipping on my personal purchases? That is the deal I get now. And most important would you allow me to teach for whatever agency I saw fit and not say anything about it to my students? If so I would happily refer my students and use your shop. But if I were restricted in any way other than scheduling times for pool, charged more than what I stated for my personal gear, or be expected to push anything more than what MY STUDENTS needed or wanted in terms of equipment then no. I could not work with you. It must be understood that the needs of the student come before the needs of you and your shop. By sticking to this and letting my students know it they trust me when I refer them for gear and usually take my advice. As a result they get a fair deal and are always coming back to those shops when they need something. They don't even think about going anywhere else without asking me first.

 

[Peter Guy]

OTW wrote (amongst a whole lot of stuff)

Lets all pray the Government puts TAX on Internet Sales - this will help squelch the internet sellers and bring customers back to the LDS's (NEVER THOUGHT ID WANT THIS!)

Yes, this is really going to help you -- taxing something to increase the price!

I ran a direct marketing company for more than 20 years. My customer base was the US and Canada. I had one physical presence which happened to be in Seattle, Washington -- a state with a pretty high sales tax but no income tax.

Some years ago I was asked to pay taxes on the sales to customers in California. The idea was that I was advertising in California and thus I had a presence there. I objected and fought -- and won. I had no presence in California; I received no benefit from taxes paid to California; I had no way to effect what the tax rate was in California. Why should I then pay taxes to California?

OTW -- you want Congress (I'm assuming since that is the only entity that can impose taxes on insterstate/internet sales) to impose taxes on these sales. Why? So that the Federal Govt has more money to spend? So that customers are punished by paying higher prices? So that you feel better because some other company isn't making a sale?

Wishing for higher taxes on your competitors (and that is what I'm assuming you are doing) is a beggar thy neighbor concept and I am quite convinced it will come back to bite you -- just as every other such scheme does. OTOH, I'm convinced that if you, in fact, provide a better product/a better service AND YOU CAN CONVINCE THE CUSTOMER OF THAT, you'll do just fine. Don't believe me? How may Betamax's do you see out there? (Oh yes, I remember, BetaMax had a much better picture -- I just couldn't see the difference on my crappy TV and, btw, the BetaMax casette wouldn't hold a full length movie like the VHS could!) The only value that is important is the one the customer comprehends.

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

Here are some simple interesting facts you may not know about me and my store.

When I first opened I invited all independent instructors to bring their students to my store for gear. I gauranteed the best pricing available on earth to anyone's students. To go along with that, I gauranteed unbeatable customer service, a no questions asked return policy and free shipping anywhere in the USA.

Now I know my area of business very well. Locally there is not a shop within 100 miles of mine that can match what I offered to independent instructors and their students.

Even so, not one independent instructor brought their students to my store.

This told me one simple thing - that I stand by on this board and in every open forum I can share it in... Independent Instructors are just another in the long list of problems within the industry. I would safely say 100% of independent Instructors within 100 miles of Baltimore Maryland are sending their students online for gear... and 100% of their students are paying too much for it.

So you're not doing your students any favors... and you're hurting the LDS's. Now I wouldn't send my students to the LDS id they were over paying for gear - but I sure would if the LDS provided the best price and the best customer service.

So I challenge any Independent Instructor out there - Jim - to argue that Independents aren't killing LDS's. If you're sending your students online for gear - instead of seeking out a quality local LDS for your students - you're doing no one any favors.

There are a small group of you who seem to like the status quo... but your realities will all soon be recent memory as the sport crashes. The economy is nowhere near the bottom yet and the middle class is about to become a permanent lower class. Diving is not the only industry being affected - it is just the only industry which can't get out of its own way.

Nothing - and I mean nothing is going to save this industry short of taking every suggestion of mine you can find on SB posts and implementing them.

1. Do away with MAP and MARP
2. Do away with or lower differences in tiered pricing from manufacturers
3. Do away with Independent Instructors
4. Do away with forums like SB
5. Do away with DEMA as we know it
6. Have each part of the industry form its own association (Wholesale, Retail, Training & Travel) then have the heads of each organization meet to make things happen
7. Increase advertising (must do away with MAP & Marp) so retailers want to advertise
8. If MAP & MARP stay - then it must be enforced on ALL INTERNET SELLERS (if they don't play along - then file suit against them.)
9. Lets all pray the Government puts TAX on Internet Sales - this will help squelch the internet sellers and bring customers back to the LDS's (NEVER THOUGHT ID WANT THIS!)
10. Continue the letter writing campaigns to the FTC who is looking into the violations of Sherman Anit-Trust and other laws.

Once this all happens... Scuba may have a fighting chance to resurrect itself on the other side of the forthcoming depression. I hate to be a doomsdayer - but the reality is the stimulus has failed and Scuba will likely not make it through another 2 - 3 years of this type of economy... by then, Scuba WII will be out... and you'll all be diving without leaving the couch.

While I admire your passion, it seems like you are getting very good at blaming a lot of other people for problems you are having in your own store.



.

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

PS.. I completely agree with you on the forthcoming depression thing. Things are going to get very ugly....very very ugly.

but none of that has anything to do with independent instructors killing your business either

 

[cerich]

Here are some simple interesting facts you may not know about me and my store.

When I first opened I invited all independent instructors to bring their students to my store for gear. I gauranteed the best pricing available on earth to anyone's students. To go along with that, I gauranteed unbeatable customer service, a no questions asked return policy and free shipping anywhere in the USA.

Now I know my area of business very well. Locally there is not a shop within 100 miles of mine that can match what I offered to independent instructors and their students.

Even so, not one independent instructor brought their students to my store.

This told me one simple thing - that I stand by on this board and in every open forum I can share it in... Independent Instructors are just another in the long list of problems within the industry. I would safely say 100% of independent Instructors within 100 miles of Baltimore Maryland are sending their students online for gear... and 100% of their students are paying too much for it.

So you're not doing your students any favors... and you're hurting the LDS's. Now I wouldn't send my students to the LDS id they were over paying for gear - but I sure would if the LDS provided the best price and the best customer service.

So I challenge any Independent Instructor out there - Jim - to argue that Independents aren't killing LDS's. If you're sending your students online for gear - instead of seeking out a quality local LDS for your students - you're doing no one any favors.

There are a small group of you who seem to like the status quo... but your realities will all soon be recent memory as the sport crashes. The economy is nowhere near the bottom yet and the middle class is about to become a permanent lower class. Diving is not the only industry being affected - it is just the only industry which can't get out of its own way.

Nothing - and I mean nothing is going to save this industry short of taking every suggestion of mine you can find on SB posts and implementing them.

1. Do away with MAP and MARP
2. Do away with or lower differences in tiered pricing from manufacturers
3. Do away with Independent Instructors
4. Do away with forums like SB
5. Do away with DEMA as we know it
6. Have each part of the industry form its own association (Wholesale, Retail, Training & Travel) then have the heads of each organization meet to make things happen
7. Increase advertising (must do away with MAP & Marp) so retailers want to advertise
8. If MAP & MARP stay - then it must be enforced on ALL INTERNET SELLERS (if they don't play along - then file suit against them.)
9. Lets all pray the Government puts TAX on Internet Sales - this will help squelch the internet sellers and bring customers back to the LDS's (NEVER THOUGHT ID WANT THIS!)
10. Continue the letter writing campaigns to the FTC who is looking into the violations of Sherman Anit-Trust and other laws.

Once this all happens... Scuba may have a fighting chance to resurrect itself on the other side of the forthcoming depression. I hate to be a doomsdayer - but the reality is the stimulus has failed and Scuba will likely not make it through another 2 - 3 years of this type of economy... by then, Scuba WII will be out... and you'll all be diving without leaving the couch.

put your money where you mouth is, first of all stay away from SB, you want it gone anyhow, collect tax for every state, I promise their rev depts won't turn away the money...

Seriously this post makes me really question you.

PS- I'm OK with joining the long list of manufs that don't want to sell to you

 

[Scott L]

Here are some simple interesting facts you may not know about me and my store.

When I first opened I invited all independent instructors to bring their students to my store for gear. I gauranteed the best pricing available on earth to anyone's students. To go along with that, I gauranteed unbeatable customer service, a no questions asked return policy and free shipping anywhere in the USA.

Now I know my area of business very well. Locally there is not a shop within 100 miles of mine that can match what I offered to independent instructors and their students.

Even so, not one independent instructor brought their students to my store.

This told me one simple thing - that I stand by on this board and in every open forum I can share it in... Independent Instructors are just another in the long list of problems within the industry. I would safely say 100% of independent Instructors within 100 miles of Baltimore Maryland are sending their students online for gear... and 100% of their students are paying too much for it.

So you're not doing your students any favors... and you're hurting the LDS's. Now I wouldn't send my students to the LDS id they were over paying for gear - but I sure would if the LDS provided the best price and the best customer service.

So I challenge any Independent Instructor out there - Jim - to argue that Independents aren't killing LDS's. If you're sending your students online for gear - instead of seeking out a quality local LDS for your students - you're doing no one any favors.

There are a small group of you who seem to like the status quo... but your realities will all soon be recent memory as the sport crashes. The economy is nowhere near the bottom yet and the middle class is about to become a permanent lower class. Diving is not the only industry being affected - it is just the only industry which can't get out of its own way.

Nothing - and I mean nothing is going to save this industry short of taking every suggestion of mine you can find on SB posts and implementing them.

I posted your business practices declaration on this thread (#10) due largely to the fact that it was so positively refreshing during these pessimistic times and represented a complete commitment to customer service, hard work and just plain old good business acumen such as "greeting each customer upon entering the store". "Actually befriending them upon completion of intial certification and inviting them to dive whenever and whereever yourself and the staff are going diving". And lastly, this true gem "put diving in front of as many people as you can. Talk about it everywhere you go to anyone that will listen. Invite them in to try scuba FREE". Your cash outlay for all of the above? Zero. So basic but so rarely immplemented by your competitors. Brilliant!

I know this game plan works as I was extremely lucky to have linked up with just such a professional instructor as yourself back in 2000 taking a refreasher course after having been inactive for over 8 years. He employed the excact tactics that you do including keeping a very large share of his former students invited on his tour led dives with 3-7 divers an outing along for a great day of diving in the Palm Beaches. This so simple concept lead many a diver (including myself) to continue acquiring advanced certifications crossing the hurdle from being a mediocre divers to ones much more comfortable in the water vastly increasing diver retention rates. He also carried a video camera with a lucky diver or two from the last outing receiving an e-mail including a great shot or a short video clip of themselves in an intertesting part of the dive further motivating the diver. His name is David Cowan Sr. and he is an independant professional dive instructor and a respected friend. http://www.oceanrelaxation.com/about.php

In responce your several of your listings of industry suggestions I offer the following retort.

1. Do away with MAP and MARP
3. Do away with Independent Instructors
4. Do away with forums like SB
5. Do away with DEMA as we know it

1. Do away with MAP and MARP. Once again I am not a dive professional but if I owned a LDS I would nevertheless carry the products of a couple of manufactures who utilizes MAP & MARP as their business plan for shear self-preservation reasons. They represent most of the industry's best products. You stated earlier that your principal complaint of independant instructors was the fact that they do not utilize your shop for equipment sales. Looking at your line-up of offerings I would be just fine with your available equipment as I utilize tec gear as most experienced divers will but new divers for the most part have never heard of the vast majority of your brands with the exception of Cressi who is a fine company but their selection of regulators and BCD's are not well known nor appear amoung recomended selections of trade magazines or other publications. An independant instructor coming into your shop with a new student is facing an up-hill battle with making the customer feeling comfortable with equipment for which they or their friends have ever heard or read mention.

3. Do away with independant instructors. If LDS's compensated instructors with living wages there probaly would not be any independants to begin with. Besides, the free enterprise system is all about choices and competition. It is what keeps everybody on their toes which very much benefits the consumer. Lastly, I would venture to say most independant instructors are simply more ambitious and entrepreneurial than their LDS based counter parts. Deny them the same self determination that you in fact now enjoy would be extremely un-Amercian to it's very core.

4. Do away with forums like SB? I am assuming you are a Vladimir Putin, Hugo
Chevas or Fidel Castro fan (censorship) or simply just nuts!

5. Do away DEMA as we know it. Well from reading mountains of complants about the organization this is by far your least controversial declaration but wholly unrealistic. The industry as small as it is certainly cannot coexist with two such organizations so the only option is to keep pressure on them to change for the better. Without SB's platform from which all can communicate about such issues what little recent change that has transpired would prehaps not have occured without all the attention that SB has given the issue this year. Just for the record, there are currently 12 threads with over 23,808 having viewed the subject matter.

Offthewall1, if all LDS's had your great additude, work ethic and natural gifts with dealing with people I would venture to say the entire industry would probaly post growth numbers of 15-20% in the next fiscal year. Last bit of advise from this businessman....there is no need to beat your chest with your very immpressive entrance into the industry. Your customers, friends, industry marketing rep's and maybe even DEMA staff will soon do so for you but not before you quit needlessly poking your peers in the eye....The best of luck! Scott

 

[offthewall1]

PS- I'm OK with joining the long list of manufs that don't want to sell to you

The long list?

There are only two that haven't sold to me from inception - Scubapro and Aqualung. The only reason they didn't is because the LDS's in the area who were already selling those products balked at the idea of having to compete with me. Once those shops are gone, they'll come knocking.

You see, most are dying to sell to me... I'm one of the few LDS's moving products - even in this economy.

There are others I used to sell that I threw out of my store for price fixing (MAP & MARP)... Oceanic, Hollis (for all intents and purposes the same company,) and Apollo.

There are others who have requested entry which I have denied to date... such as OMS because we already have Dive Rite & Oxycheq and DUI because they over-priced and we already sell five other better Drysuit Lines... Whites, Seasoft, Abyss, Dive Rite and Diving Concepts.

So given that we sell more product lines than any other LDS in the state of Maryland and perhaps on the entire east coast... where is that long line of brands who wont sell to us?

Good companies are doing business right with LDS's that promote their products and put them in the consumers hands at a great price. They know where the future of diving is... and it's not in the same ole same ole that got the industry in the current mess it is in.

Don't believe me... read all the posts related to industry misfunction.... but don't blame me because I'm the answer to the problem... and I've taken the steps to cahnge the industry for the better... at least in my local community...




Cheers

 

[scubatoys]

There are others I used to sell that I threw out of my store for price fixing (MAP & MARP)...

Better toss Dive rite and Oxycheq out of your shop too... And Cressi... They have Map policies too... And I know your principals are more important than any sales or profits.

 

[offthewall1]

Better toss Dive rite and Oxycheq out of your shop too... And Cressi... They have Map policies too... And I know your principals are more important than any sales or profits.

There are those that enforce MAP and those that use it as a ploy to appease their fellow manufacturers.

Dive Rite allows the use of "Call for Price"... on websites and that is all we've ever asked anyone for. Oxycheq does not - at least not historically use or enforce MAP pricing. At DEMA two years ago they told us they didn't believe in that nonsense - and they've never called us about our advertised pricing.. and finally CRESSI... Cressi does have MAP on a few of their items - but not their entire catalog... and so we don't sell the products for which they have MAP pricing or since they have such a flexible catalog - we may occassionally sell these products but agree not to advertise them... rather we advertise the non-map items.

You know, Larry, Mo and Curly... I'm sorry it's just Larry and Joe?... I'm sure you're taking gas right now with all that inventory you're overloaded with... If I can help you out... let me know.