Al Hornsby Resigns

[offthewall1]

After all, retailers and manufacturers enter freely into contractual agreements to adhere to MAP and MARP, without any intervention from the government.

One hardly enters into this agreement freely. One enters into it by being told "sign it, or you don't get to carry our products." That is coersion not freedom.

The argument that a businessman (a retailer) can simply choose not to carry that product line is ridiculous. We all know that certain product lines are in greater demnand than others and if one cannot get a dealership agreement with the more desired brand, he will never compete on a level playing field.

This is of course all based on misperception. We can argue all day as to whether or not IST regulators perform on par with Apex. Ther public perception, driven by forums such as this one, drive people to buy more Apex than IST.

Given that any half intelligent businessman would want to carry the more desired brand, and given that the desired brand imposes MAP or MARP pricing onto the dealer, one can not contend that the agreement is entered into freely.

Using simple symantics, yes, it is entered into freely - but hardly is it entered into willingly.... and if it is not your will to do so... freedom is lost in there somewhere.

 

[offthewall1]

This sounds like a great idea, but what about people like myself - an ambitious marketer, a high-standards instructor and someone who is insanely passionate about this sport - who have incredibly hard times affiliating after a move to a different city because LDS owners feel threatened and think I just want to open my own LDS? If they won't provide a home for me, perhaps I should open my own LDS and put them out of business. To blame the independent and use words like "require" just simply won't work.

Come to Baltimore. I'll welcome you with open arms. Forward thinkers such as yourself are what we need here. Join me or oppose me - doesn't matter... you'll give better options to the consumer... and that's what it's all about.

 

[The Chairman]

Using simple symantics, yes, it is entered into freely - but hardly is it entered into willingly.... and if it is not your will to do so... freedom is lost in there somewhere.

The sad part is that many manufacturers believe that they would lose business if they took away MAP/MARP. I have yet to hear a retailer comment on how happy they are with MAP/MARP. In fact, a few excel on how to circumvent the process and I have heard some manufacturer's reps teach them how to get around it. It devolves honest business men into becoming used car salesmen or multi-level marketeers! It might be a child of the free market, but it is not representative of freedom in the market place!

 

[offthewall1]

It's not my intention to pick a fight or hijack this thread,

but---

That's one of the Dumbest statements I've ever read in this forum.

I'll bite...

Your statement is unequivocally "the" dumbest, not just one of the dumbest I've read on Scubaboard.

Here is is why.

Indepedent Instructors pull clients away from the LDS.

Way back in the beginning diving was taught by a few guys who had been brave enough to go where no man (not literally) had gone before. They did however go there with equipment that had been designed unlike any that had been designed before. These were for all intents and purposes Independent Instructors who eventually had a vision, began some training agencies and even local dive shops.

These visionaries in the sport knew that they could make money taking people diving andf that the way to reach people and provide this service was to put stores on corners in their neighborhoods and eventually across the country.

The LDS became the backbone of the sport, recognized early on by the manufacturers and training agencies who literally in some cases fought for placement in these stores. Reps were hired to walk into stores across the country to get brand placement and get the shop to teach their program. It still happens today.

If the industry itself has historically seen the LDS as the backbone of the industry, it makes me even more crazy now to know that those very manufacturers and training agencies have turned their back on them.

This is why your statement is dumb.

Everytime an Independent Instructor teaches a student, that is one less student (less income) that goes into keeping the LDS open. One more nail in the coffin. The same as every time an online sale occurs, one more nail in the coffin.

I will never argue that independent instructors are all bad. Just like in dive shops... there are good and bad Instructors everywhere you go. The idea however that Instructors at dive shops are somehow less of an Instructor quality than independents has some weight. Why?

Because the training agencies continue to push shops to create more and more DM's and Instructors as a way to generate income. It is not about producing a quality instructor... it's about quantity.

Now if I'm going to pick on an agency, I'll pick on Al Hornsby's PADI. There are far more PADI Instructors out there than any other agency... and these are what constitute most of the independent instructors around the globe. These are also the most rushed through, poorly trained instructors around the globe... so whether they work in shops or as independents... they're ill prepared.

Without telling horror stories... it is fair to say that other agencies operate just as shoddy - and likely moreso.

The bottom line is that a good LDS owner can assist the agencies in weeding out the bad Instructors... but this can only happen if independent Instructors are made to affiliate with or start their own LDS.

Think about it.

 

[cerich]

. I have yet to hear a retailer comment on how happy they are with MAP/MARP.!

actually it is pretty well split between dealers who like/love MAP/MARP and those that don't Pete. Just a couple years ago I would have said 80% of dealers liked MAP/MARP.

Of course many want others to be constrained by MAP/MARP but not them...

 

[cerich]

them.

This is why your statement is dumb.

Everytime an Independent Instructor teaches a student, that is one less student (less income) that goes into keeping the LDS open. One more nail in the coffin. The same as every time an online sale occurs, one more nail in the coffin.


Think about it.

I disagree, it is not "One more nail in the coffin", PROVIDED that the same number of new divers and gear is being sold, if that is the case then it is only a shift in distribution. However we know that isn't the case, BUT I am certain that independants are NOT the problem at all. The problem is when ego or stupidity prevent a LDS and independant from working together.

A town with 2 good shops and half a dozen independants will be a good healthy dive market, a town with 2 crap shops will NEVER be a healthy dive market, even with all other factors (demograpics) being the same.

Blaming the independants for any of the inustry woes is silly and misdirected.

In fact I will go so far as to say they are the most underutilized resource in the industry. We just need to learn how to use them.

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

I'll bite...

Your statement is unequivocally "the" dumbest, not just one of the dumbest I've read on Scubaboard.

Here is is why.

Indepedent Instructors pull clients away from the LDS.

Way back in the beginning diving was taught by a few guys who had been brave enough to go where no man (not literally) had gone before. They did however go there with equipment that had been designed unlike any that had been designed before. These were for all intents and purposes Independent Instructors who eventually had a vision, began some training agencies and even local dive shops.

These visionaries in the sport knew that they could make money taking people diving andf that the way to reach people and provide this service was to put stores on corners in their neighborhoods and eventually across the country.

The LDS became the backbone of the sport, recognized early on by the manufacturers and training agencies who literally in some cases fought for placement in these stores. Reps were hired to walk into stores across the country to get brand placement and get the shop to teach their program. It still happens today.

If the industry itself has historically seen the LDS as the backbone of the industry, it makes me even more crazy now to know that those very manufacturers and training agencies have turned their back on them.

This is why your statement is dumb.

Everytime an Independent Instructor teaches a student, that is one less student (less income) that goes into keeping the LDS open. One more nail in the coffin. The same as every time an online sale occurs, one more nail in the coffin.

I will never argue that independent instructors are all bad. Just like in dive shops... there are good and bad Instructors everywhere you go. The idea however that Instructors at dive shops are somehow less of an Instructor quality than independents has some weight. Why?

Because the training agencies continue to push shops to create more and more DM's and Instructors as a way to generate income. It is not about producing a quality instructor... it's about quantity.

Now if I'm going to pick on an agency, I'll pick on Al Hornsby's PADI. There are far more PADI Instructors out there than any other agency... and these are what constitute most of the independent instructors around the globe. These are also the most rushed through, poorly trained instructors around the globe... so whether they work in shops or as independents... they're ill prepared.

Without telling horror stories... it is fair to say that other agencies operate just as shoddy - and likely moreso.

The bottom line is that a good LDS owner can assist the agencies in weeding out the bad Instructors... but this can only happen if independent Instructors are made to affiliate with or start their own LDS.

Think about it.

Well, I certainly understand your mentality... It's one I've dealt with quite a bit in this industry.

but, to somehow think just because you opened a brick and mortar retail store, you are now divinely entitled to all your areas business is quite Dumb.

What makes you think you don't have to earn every new customer and work hard every day to keep those customers ?

When I was running a Dive Shop in TN I had a very good relationship with some independent instructors, a YMCA instructor especially.

They were good for business!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

We independents don;t sell gear to our students. They have to buy it from someone else. That means the LDS or the internet. The LDS that treats me well will get all of my student referrals and recommendations. The one that does not will see them in gear from Leisure Pro, Scubatoys, DiveSports, Dive RightIn, or Joel at TDL. Most of my students are friends, co workers, family, etc. If it were not for me they would never even think of walking into a dive shop. Keep telling me how I'm taking business away from the LDS as opposed to adding to it.

 

[Peter Guy]

OffTheWall -- I don't believe it is unrealistic to compare the Scuba industry with the skiing industry -- at least when it comes to instructors and retail sales. My understanding of the skiing industry is that it is the very rare retail shop that also offers instruction -- to the contrary, the vast majority of instruction comes from the ski areas.

We, here in the PNW, were/are unusual in the number of "unaffiliated" ski instructors -- that is, unaffiliated with the ski areas. A significant number of the instructors work for ski schools which contract with the areas for space in which to teach. Almost no shop, and certainly none of the larger ones, have teaching staffs.

Guess what -- the system works fine. Ski schools, whether affiliated or not, teach -- retail stores sell -- a symbiotic relationship.

Why couldn't/shouldn't that work in the Scuba industry? Why haven't "Scuba schools" been created with relationships to the retail shops -- not to mention relationships with the resorts! What is it about this industry that keeps it so fractured?

I admire your semantic dancing about "free will." You seem to think that "free will" only applies to you and "your side" -- not to the anyone else. Sorry, it doesn't. You DO have free will and enter into your distributor relationships voluntarily. So what if AL or SPro are the gorillas to which you feel you must submit -- it is still your choice. You choose to run a Scuba store; you choose to accept customers who buy on brand name; you choose not to affiliate with others to give you more bargaining power. YOUR CHOICE -- which is the essence of free will -- and thank goodness for that!

 

[offthewall1]

Here are some simple interesting facts you may not know about me and my store.

When I first opened I invited all independent instructors to bring their students to my store for gear. I gauranteed the best pricing available on earth to anyone's students. To go along with that, I gauranteed unbeatable customer service, a no questions asked return policy and free shipping anywhere in the USA.

Now I know my area of business very well. Locally there is not a shop within 100 miles of mine that can match what I offered to independent instructors and their students.

Even so, not one independent instructor brought their students to my store.

This told me one simple thing - that I stand by on this board and in every open forum I can share it in... Independent Instructors are just another in the long list of problems within the industry. I would safely say 100% of independent Instructors within 100 miles of Baltimore Maryland are sending their students online for gear... and 100% of their students are paying too much for it.

So you're not doing your students any favors... and you're hurting the LDS's. Now I wouldn't send my students to the LDS id they were over paying for gear - but I sure would if the LDS provided the best price and the best customer service.

So I challenge any Independent Instructor out there - Jim - to argue that Independents aren't killing LDS's. If you're sending your students online for gear - instead of seeking out a quality local LDS for your students - you're doing no one any favors.

There are a small group of you who seem to like the status quo... but your realities will all soon be recent memory as the sport crashes. The economy is nowhere near the bottom yet and the middle class is about to become a permanent lower class. Diving is not the only industry being affected - it is just the only industry which can't get out of its own way.

Nothing - and I mean nothing is going to save this industry short of taking every suggestion of mine you can find on SB posts and implementing them.

1. Do away with MAP and MARP
2. Do away with or lower differences in tiered pricing from manufacturers
3. Do away with Independent Instructors
4. Do away with forums like SB
5. Do away with DEMA as we know it
6. Have each part of the industry form its own association (Wholesale, Retail, Training & Travel) then have the heads of each organization meet to make things happen
7. Increase advertising (must do away with MAP & Marp) so retailers want to advertise
8. If MAP & MARP stay - then it must be enforced on ALL INTERNET SELLERS (if they don't play along - then file suit against them.)
9. Lets all pray the Government puts TAX on Internet Sales - this will help squelch the internet sellers and bring customers back to the LDS's (NEVER THOUGHT ID WANT THIS!)
10. Continue the letter writing campaigns to the FTC who is looking into the violations of Sherman Anit-Trust and other laws.

Once this all happens... Scuba may have a fighting chance to resurrect itself on the other side of the forthcoming depression. I hate to be a doomsdayer - but the reality is the stimulus has failed and Scuba will likely not make it through another 2 - 3 years of this type of economy... by then, Scuba WII will be out... and you'll all be diving without leaving the couch.