Al Hornsby Resigns

[Wookie]

Trace, don'ttake this the wrongway but i hope you get weathered in more often. That was a beautiful expression of what local diving really means to us...it IS diving and by virtue the industry.

So, Chris, what is local diving? Can you get there by car? Is it less than $500? Is it without a passport? Is it less than 6 hours away? In Houston, Cozumel is local diving. In Austin (with direct flights to Cozumel), Lake Travis is local diving. We need to define the term.

Frank

 

[The Chairman]

Any irony in that?

Tobin

Tons. How different these threads could have been with a timely post or three by Tom@DEMA? I do believe that the perception of DEMA as an ostrich hiding it's head in the intersand would be demolished. I don't think they like/trust me so it would be OK if they did it on ANY board. It would be a big boost for that forum, that's for sure, but that's not the point. The point is in OPEN communications.

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

Independent Instructors also hurt the sport as they degrade the historic base of the industry - the LDS.

Here are the answers to fixing the Industry... from all fronts:
1. Require all Instructors who are within an RSTC agency to be shop affiliated. No more independent Instructors.

It's not my intention to pick a fight or hijack this thread,

but---

That's one of the Dumbest statements I've ever read in this forum.

 

[shoredivr]

So, Chris, what is local diving? Can you get there by car? Yes Is it less than $500? Not necessarily if it's a tech dive with trimix, and a charter boat. Is it without a passport? Not necessarily, if I'm on the Canadian side of the St. Lawrence River and want to dive a wreck on the American side I need a passport. Is it less than 6 hours away? Sure In Houston, Cozumel is local diving. In Austin (with direct flights to Cozumel), Lake Travis is local diving. We need to define the term.

Frank

There's some suggestions in red. In Ontario I sometimes think that local diving is somewhere that a newly certified diver would be surprised to find out you can dive, because they've been led to believe the only places worth diving are warm water travel destinations - despite having their OW training in someplace cold like Tobermory, Ontario.

 

[cerich]

So, Chris, what is local diving? Can you get there by car? Is it less than $500? Is it without a passport? Is it less than 6 hours away? In Houston, Cozumel is local diving. In Austin (with direct flights to Cozumel), Lake Travis is local diving. We need to define the term.

Frank

Local diving to me is generally local, but more so with my social group. Most times local is ....well somewhat local sometimes it involves boats, planes and automobiles.

 

[cerich]

Tobermory, Ontario.

hmmm, when I was teaching in Ontario in the mid 90's Toby was the GOOD diving, Lake Simcoe the crap ow checkout. Simcoe an hour drive and Toby 5-6 hours. Yes all great local diving.

 

[Thalassamania]

Independent Instructors also hurt the sport as they degrade the historic base of the industry - the LDS.

Are you nuts? The historic base of the industry is the indenpendent instructor, working through colleges, Y type organizations and recreation departments.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Are you nuts? The historic base of the industry is the indenpendent instructor, working through colleges, Y type organizations and recreation departments.

Yes, it would be like the public school system denouncing private tutors and claiming to be the basis of education.

As an independent instructor who became affiliated with dive centers, I can honestly say that doing so made me and my students less happy. My girlfriend, who met me when she audited an Intro To Tech class, still won't let me live down the fact that I sold her an OMS backplate. Had I been independent or had the shop, which now carries Halcyon had that line, I wouldn't have dented our student-instructor trust. I was also asked to reduce the length of my classes and combine programs where possible.

Independents can focus on education, not operating costs. DEMA did nothing for the independents and little for local diving. If anything DEMA crucified the historic bases of the industry. The more students are made by independents, the greater the chance for dive centers to sell gear to qualified divers increases. For dive centers, education has historically been a way for them to sell gear. For independents, education has been a way to sell knowledge gained from experience. Now, that the historic base has been forgotten by DEMA we have a dying industry of substandard education, experience, equipment, and adventure.

 

[tc]

For the record, I have never pointed a finger at Al or PADI. I don't know Al or for that matter anyone of significant importance at PADI.

While PADI stumbles and bumbles around trying to retain market share against growing upstarts such as SDI, SSI and a few others, their place in the industry, other than losing some market share will likely not change anytime soon.

While training agencies have dumbed down the requirements to receive a certification and in some ways hurt the sport because of it - they are one of the smaller problems within the sport as a whole.

I say that because most dive shops are still trying to teach a well thought out - respectable program.. often even beyond the standards. Where PADI and the others have hurt the industry is by affiliating with shops who do wham bam thank you mam classes... inherently dangerous classes and classes with no intention of serving the customer beyond taking their money for open water.

Independent Instructors also hurt the sport as they degrade the historic base of the industry - the LDS.

Here are the answers to fixing the Industry... from all fronts:
1. Require all Instructors who are within an RSTC agency to be shop affiliated. No more independent Instructors.
2. Bring minimum standards back to certifying to the recreational limit of 130 ft for open water and require those standards be met. Damn the lawyers and Insurance industry and the agency leaders who adopted 60ft for the sake of saving money on one end while making it on the other.
3. Manufacturers must eliminate MARP and MAP pricing. MARP because it is outright illegal price fixing and MAP because it allows the industry to advertise great prices - which in turn will lure more divers to the sport. It will make and allow dive shops to compete on price.
4. Along with the previous, manufacturers must be willing to put in the extra effort required to pack and ship items to all of their dealers at the same prices they sell it to the wholesalers for. Without this, the whole enchilada falls apart.
5. *Retailers must offer quality instruction and competitive pricing. If you price gouge - you deserve to be shut down. Perhaps even by the industry itself. Those caught inflating prices could be shut down either by the training agency pulling their affiliation - or better yet by the manufacturers who cut them off.

*This one needs some clarification. - A new meaning for MARP. Instead of "Minimum Allowed Retail Price" - It should be a Maximum Allowed Retail Price from Manufacturers. There are stores in my area that for years were selling fins with an MSRP of $90 for $125. The advent of the internet brought the same fins online for $69. The LDS started to struggle to sell their fins because they're poorly managed. For god sakes, they were already over the MSRP by $35 and telling people they shouldn't buy online. This was happening all across the country - leading to a lot of pissed off disenchanted scuba divers. So now, the manufacturer will sell to dealers who agree not to sell above the MARP... of $90.00 and allow competition below this price point to fall where it may.

6. Another key to this is the elimination of tiered pricing discounts based on buying volume to two basic levels - and having those levels not so far apart. Given the above fin example... if the fin wholesales in volume of say 100 pair or more to wholesalers for $30.00 a pair... then it should be available to all dealers for $35 a pair. The LDS then can effectively compete. This is another crucial point the manufacturers must adopt. $5 volume buying discount per piece maximum.
The big online sellers won't like it - but then they can shut down to if they want to!

Once we fix the wholesale pricing to the dealer network... readjust the training back to a recreational limit level and require Instructors to be shop affiliated - the industry will begin to fix itself...

I have more - but that is enough for now. Go ahead and pick it apart...

Independent instructors ARE the historic base of this industry, not the LDS.

And if you take a moment to look through this or any other forum you'll find that when the topic of higher standards comes up it's the independent instructors that are leading the way for improvement, not the shops, not the agencies (with a couple of notable exceptions) and absolutely, positively NOT the RSTC. The RSTC has done nothing more than taken the lowest common denominator in training standards and made it acceptable for it's members to aim as low as possible.

If you have a problem working with independent instructors at your shop then I would suggest you look at your business model to see where it could be improved- most shops are happy to have the additional business brought in during these tough economic times.

If RSTC should ever ban independent instruction it won't be a problem though- It will simply drive the independents to the agencies that are willing to support them.

 

[Scared Silly]

Independent Instructors also hurt the sport as they degrade the historic base of the industry - the LDS.

Here are the answers to fixing the Industry... from all fronts:
1. Require all Instructors who are within an RSTC agency to be shop affiliated. No more independent Instructors.

Bull pucky ... there are many programs that have historically been independent of a dive shop, yet they great benefit all shops. University programs are one such example.