Al Hornsby Resigns

[offthewall1]

Trace,

I can acknowledge that some of your points are valid - but not enough of them. You haven't addressed the negatives I brought up regarding independents and quite frankly, just because there are some good ones where you are doesn't mean it's the same everywhere.

We have the most state of the art store and classroom in Maryland... and it has always been open to independents. As I stated earlier - none have ever walked in and inquired how we might work with them. At this point they couldn't judge us - one way or the other - because they've never walked in.

I think in the years since I opened, I've talked to a total of two independent Instructors, offered them more than they could possibly hope for anywhere else - and still never saw them again. My take on this has simply been that they don't want to deal with dive shops period.

With all due respect to my fellow Marylander who espouses his great relationship with independents - I know it's just hot air. I was around his store enough for a decade to know he does little if anything with Independent instructors. Maybe a few, but nothing significant - and they likely hurt him more than help him and he's never figured that out.

I think a symbiotic relationship with Independents could work, but only if they're required to affiliate with a shop. PADI Instructors are independent - but even PADI will tell you they prefer the instructors work with an LDS... and this is for all the reasons I've stated and maybe some I've never thought of.

Would working closely with independents bring business to my store - of course it would, if the independent instructor respected the relationship. You see relationships must work both ways. The problem is most independents are one-way Wainwright's. Admittedly, many shop owners are the same way, but the shop owner has far more invested and far more to lose. The shop has a face, a location and an image to uphold.

Here today, gone tomorrow independents can screw somebody and be teaching in a different town tomorrow... screwing somebody else. It doesn't matter if there is a bad apple (dissatisified customer) in their bunch... they'll just get a new bunch at a new grocery store tomorrow... and the dissatisfied customer has no one to complain to or about.

If I piss off a customer it hurts my business. If the independent pisses off a customer - who cares. Maybe they'll teach a few less people... but it is too easy to find a new group of suckers... that's not so easy for a shop with a physical location, regular phone number and an image in the community.

As I have before, I invite any independent to come and check out our store... it is state of then art. Computer driven, ceiling mount projectors for using power point presentations, a full size classroom with rental gear for demonstration, a Movie Screen for showing DVD movies, a mini-fridge stocked for customers with water and sodas etc...

Students are guaranteed the lowest prices on gear, the best customer service, a no-hassle returns policy and Instructors get cost + 10% on all personal purchases... which is better than key-man pricing in most cases.

All independent Instructors receive FREE air-fills for themselves and their students. Students may also be entitled to FREE boat diving aboard the Retriever (ask for details.)

The only things we ask in return are that the students are brought in to buy gear from us (not directed to the internet,) and since our pricing is better than internet anyway - that's not a trap... and that all students are processed under our store number. If gear is needed, there are reasonable rental fees for independents and their students. If pool time is needed, it can be arranged at one of our many pools.

At any rate, enough talk... I'm off to make things happen... why not do the same for yourselves

Cheers

 

[Gombessa]

I think in the years since I opened, I've talked to a total of two independent Instructors, offered them more than they could possibly hope for anywhere else - and still never saw them again. My take on this has simply been that they don't want to deal with dive shops period.

Some plausible alternatives do come to mind. This could be a good opportunity for self-reflection.

 

[cerich]

The only things we ask in return are that the students are brought in to buy gear from us (not directed to the internet,) and since our pricing is better than internet anyway - that's not a trap... and that all students are processed under our store number. If gear is needed, there are reasonable rental fees for independents and their students. If pool time is needed, it can be arranged at one of our many pools.

At any rate, enough talk... I'm off to make things happen... why not do the same for yourselves

Cheers

why process under your store #? Doesn't that opne you up to both legal liability and also reputation liability?

 

[Thalassamania]

Given all the advantages that you list I can only conclude that the reason independents don't flock to your door is that they don't like working with you. If you want to crack that market you'll have to figure out what you've done to piss the independents off.

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

OTW, did you become an instructor before you even opened a store? - Or - Have you ever walked in the shoes of an Independent Instructor?

Just trying to understand your point of view better.

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

I wonder how many of these people are "whats wrong with the industry" since their not know for accomplishments they made serving their LDS?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

And why would I process my students through you? I teach SEI courses and don't need to go through any shop for certs. I fax my info on Monday morning and student cards are in my hand by Friday at the latest. I don't believe you are an SEI Diving affiliate so I could not by standards process through your shop. We are set up so that the instructor gets credit for certifications. Not the shop. Much fairer process since we do the work. Also I buy materials for the same price as a shop would. No benefit to giving you credit for certs you did not teach. No wonder independents won't work with you. Why should they teach and your shop gets the credit? That is just plain wrong on so many levels. I would never teach for an agency that would allow that to take place. Want partial credit for em? Fine, teach half the class to our standards. Oh wait, you can't since you are not an SEI shop or instructor. Sorry. No work no credit for students certified.

 

[offthewall1]

I'll try to address the questions from a few of you here...

1. I was an instructor for years working in a shop environment before opening a store. I worked in two other stores prior to opening my own. I opened my own for the "independence" of getting away from poorly run dive shops. Our shop is run properly and open to all.

2. Thal, I object to those saying I or we have done something to keep independents out of our store. I really don't know any independents and none have ever come in to see what we can do for them. Certainly you could point at my post on this thread as something independents may object to, but I didn't have this attitude two+ years ago... it is something I've seen killing the industry since I opened the shop... and so now I'm making that point.

3. Yes, having independents run students through my facility open the store up to a minimal liability. We all know that untimately the Instructor is held most accountable. It also however allows me to hand select independents that I respect, trust and have faith in... I'm willing to take on some level of liability in exchange for growing my stores certification numbers and sales numbers. This is a trade off... which leads back to my point that independents want their cake and to eat it too. There has to be give and take in a relationship. I know for a fact this is why no other (with the possible exception of DD) shops in our area work with Independents. SSI shops of which we have three in the area don't allow it and the other area shops don't either. They all see independents as a threat to their numbers. I am not purely a numbers man, but by running PADI certs under the store number, we grow the store and ultimately our reputation, thereby increasing the stores value. For all we would be giving independents, it's little to ask for in return - since it costs them absolutely nothing. They still get their Instructor Credit - they're just affiliated with a store. Seems like a no brainer - no big deal to me... both as an Instructor and a store owner.

4. No disrespect to your SEI rating here... but I've never even heard of it.. and highly doubt it is recognized worldwide. I can spout off about 15 - 20 known agencies and SEI will never come out of my mouth. Now with that said, I think giving you the ability to use a shop classroom, run the electric, not have to pay the rent etc... is worth something... and so to say no work - no credit, you're just being ignorant. I work hard everyday to provide you (an independent) with the space to teach and the gear on the walls, rental equipment for up to 20 students etc... so I'd say I'd be doing more than enough work to get a little credit (which amounts to little more than a number indicating a certification was issued. To not want to share such a small thing with a shop - further shows in my mind that independents are ignorant, self-serving and killing the LDS.

5. Clint, they're all wonderful people... but there are thousands of LDS owners who have done more for the industry than any of them could hope to. The LDS owners have certified tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of new divers since the inception of the sport, and they are the ones that have kept the manufacturers, training agencies and dive resorts worldwide in business for the past 30 years. Lets not skimp on credit.

In closing, I certainly side with some of your points against LDS's. I opened mine because of them. Many are arrogant blow-hards who sit around all day and bitch about the internet and just wait for that one sucker to walk in their door so they can rip them off. I know, I worked in them - which is why I opened mine and have geared it to be consumer friendly (best service & best pricing,) and Instructor friendly (highest pay per student in the industry.)

It is why we are attacked by our neighboring shops so frequently here on this board. I challenge anyone to find a negative post of mine directed at them... but you can consistently find them directed at us... heck, there are two in this thread alone.

I know that the old guard in this industry is not very welcoming of change. I don't think any of us on this thread are so far apart. I think it is a matter of tweeking - rather than tearing down and rebuilding when it comes to the minds here. The problems of the industry are not between any of us... it is the old guard. I'm the now and the future... and I know that. It is their minds we must change...

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

No disrespect to your SEI rating here... but I've never even heard of it.. and highly doubt it is recognized worldwide. I can spout off about 15 - 20 known agencies and SEI will never come out of my mouth.

It's only one of the oldest and most respected agencies. Ever heard of YMCA? SEI is the new name of the YMCA scuba program.

If I ever meet an instructor or diver with SEI credentials I will gladly pay them the respect they deserve.

 

[fireflock]

With all due respect, you sound like the old guard.

The problem with locking instructors (and students) into shops is plain to see in your point (1). There are too many poorly run shops. Locking students and instructors into those shops guarantees a poor experience. That's no way to grow the industry.