al double 80's , pst 104's ?

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Genesis once frothed...
Anything else is foolhardy, and asserting that the problem is the material the tank is made out of is beyond foolhardy and into Darwin candidate territory.
The tank material is a handy “handle” by which we can lump buoyancy characteristics into two categories. Those that swing around zero (ALs) and those that end up at best neutral (most steels).

To claim that you think cylinder materials confuse George is at BEST naive.

Roak
 
I like redundancy, so much so that I have three means of ascent when diving doubles: (1) BC; (2); Drysuit; (3) 100lb lift bag.

If a piece of equipment can fail, it will. Forget about tank material, have redundant systems!

Adam
 
I think he's blinded by his religion and is hiding behind a mis-statement he made some time ago, but is afraid to retract.
 
Scubaroo once bubbled...
In the DIRF book, the weight of air in a set of double 80s is quoted at around 12 pounds, and helium would be 3 pounds. I would like to see a definitive source for this type of data though.
This is fairly straightforward. Gases exert pressure due to the number of molecules in a given volume (this statement is not accurate to three decimal places, but close enough for the point here). At standard temperature and pressure, one mole (atomic weight in grams) of a gas occupies about 22 - 23 liters. For Helium, a molecule is a single atom.
The molecular weight of oxygen is 32.
The molecular weight of nitrogen is 28.
The molecular weight of helium is 4.
In other words, four pounds of helium will give you the same psi as 32 pounds of oxygen as 28 pounds of nitrogen.
At sea level on a standard day, if you had a 22.4 liter baloon filled with helium at 1 ATA it would weigh only 4 grams (plus the weight of the baloon) and displace 29 grams in dry air, and so be able to lift (has a positive buoyancy of) 25 grams minus the weight of the baloon itself.
Rick
 
And just to add to the silt out here...

The volume of an AL80 is ~11 Liters or half a mole at STP.

dum te dum dum

omar
 
hmmm....very inforamative thread so far.

But, I think for me diving dry with lots of insulations all the time would make double 80s a less than viable solution since I'll be stuck carry a ton of weight on weight on belt, correct?.

And double 104lps are about the same size as hp120s, right? But, am I going to be starting the dive really, really neg (like -24) with the double 120s? Can I have a balanced rig with 120s (due to the inherent bouynacy of my drysuit and undergarments) or is it impossible to be balanced with double 120s?

The LDS around here gives great hp fills, is there any reason I should not go with double 120s?

Thanks for any feedback, I'm in the process of buying my first set of doubles and I'm trying to get as much info as I can.
 
Pulling some numbers out of my rear, so take it with a grain of salt if you can stomach them...

Going with the figure of .081lbs per CF of air (don't remember where I got that number from), double 120s at 240cf of air would weigh 19.44lbs. Looking at PST HP 120's, they are 36 lbs each, but have a bouyency of (-0.4) lbs, bringing you up to 91.44 lbs out of water, but only (-20.24lbs) bouyency. Toss in about 10 more pounds for regs/manifold/hoses, bring it up to a little over 100lbs on dry land, (-30lbs) bouyency. Then add in any other gear that you want to tote around (BP, knives, extra masks, compass gagues, dive comp, lights, etc) bring dry weight up to say 120lbs and the bouyency up to (-45lbs).

A person is usually a few lbs bouyent (which is why people tend to float), you can credit yourself a few lbs, I'll go with 2lbs for a nice round number.

If you are 200lbs on dry land, add in the 120lbs of gear and multiply by the 0.025 for increased saltwater density displaced (not very good meathod, but acceptable for eyeballing bouyency to get an estimate) if diving in salt water bringing you to anoter free 8lbs bouyency.

Not being a drysuit diver myself, I have no idea how many lbs of bouyency you can get with your drysuit with normal operation, but I'd wager it's at least 10 lbs (and this 10lbs bouyency can be maintained at varying depth unlike wetsuits).

This would make your initial bouyency at entery without weights (-15) and your total land weight that you have to drag off of and back onto the boat at 320lbs.

If you suck your tanks 3/4 dry (easy fraction to compute with), then you would have a bouyency at decompression stop of ~ 0lbs, dry weight of ~305lbs.

Looking at LP steel 104's in comaprison, they weigh 45lbs each with a bouyency of (-0.7) and the air would weigh
~16.8lbs for a total of ~106.8lbs dry, bouyency weight of ~(-15.4)

Assuming the rest of the gear is the same and your weight is the same, in salt water, you will be approx 5.4lbs more bouyent at start and 4.4lbs more bouyent at 1/4 air left over the HP 120's and approx 15lbs heavier out of water.

edit - Since that make you 4.4 lbs bouyent at the end of the dive, you would probably slap on a 5 lbs weight to offset that to maintain neutral bouyency at deco stop, removing the extra bouyency at the start of the dive as well, and making you 20 lbs heavier out of water.

Diving steel doubles with a wetsuit is not generally reccomended for bouyency at depth safty reasons as outlined by many others in this thread, though I don't doubt that it can and is done safely by some, be it by bringing lift bags or what have you.

Edit - I vaguely remeber reading on some site that was a pretty strong advocate of DIR that they advise against it for wetsuit open water dives, but I can't for the life of me remeber where I read it, but will try to locate it later.

The reason to get steel HP120s over steel LP104's should be because you need the extra 36CF of air and have weight issues out of the water or size issues that do not permit steel LP120's.

The reason to get steel LP120's over steel HP120 is because while heavier out of water and larger, in water they have simlar bouyency characteristics, carry the same CF of gas and are easier to fill with regular air (some smaller compressors in the boonies/ on boats/etc may not be able to fill HP tanks to + rating as readily as they can LP tanks) or increased difficulties filling HP tanks with nitrox/trimix mixes.
 
Well, Lucid, you must be a lean, mean diving machine with very low body fat... That is amazing that you only need 12 lbs. with a drysuit and AL 80's. When I dive my 112's doubles, with a SS BP and battery canister that is -4, I need an additional 4 lbs. to keep me down when those babies are almost dry. I admit it, I am not in the best shape in the world, but I can lift those 112's out of the water and on to a boat when the seas up here in New England are pitching and rolling... I cant imagine diving AL 80's doubles... I would need to use about another 12 lbs on a weight belt. Maybe I should start going to the gym!!!
 
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I'm really not all that lean. 5'11" 205 pounds. When I dive my neutrally bouyany double aluminums I only wear 8#'s. And thats an 8 pound v-weight on my tanks. I use a SS backplate and carry a Wreck 1 Cannister light. I add a few pounds if I carry a stage or deco bottle.

*shrug* I dunno. Thats why I have been questioning the amounts of weight that I hear that people are wearing.
 

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