Air3 on BP/W setup

[fnfalman]

I I'll stick to my opinion that diving and divers would be better off if more energy and wealth were expended diving, instead of on endless, largely pointless, and arguably dubious upgrades in gear, and the distraction that process entails.

When I first got into diving and especially started attending on ScubaBoard I too started talk about going tech this and going DIR that. Until a rec diving instructor/course director showed me a thing or two about diving. That dude is a fish. Not only he had great air consumption rate, but he had dived all over the world and taught all sorts of people. I've seen him performed a double rescue (two OOA divers, one of them passed out). After that, I figured that there is plenty in rec diving that I need to learn and master before I started doing anything fancy.

Nowadays I just laugh at those who can barely dive but equip themselves with Hog harness, BPW, double tank, bailout, deco bottle, SMB, reel just so that they can do a rec diver and sticking their noises up in the air talking about "failure points".

 

[spoolin01]

When I first got into diving and especially started attending on ScubaBoard I too started talk about going tech this and going DIR that. Until a rec diving instructor/course director showed me a thing or two about diving. That dude is a fish. Not only he had great air consumption rate, but he had dived all over the world and taught all sorts of people. I've seen him performed a double rescue (two OOA divers, one of them passed out). After that, I figured that there is plenty in rec diving that I need to learn and master before I started doing anything fancy.

Nowadays I just laugh at those who can barely dive but equip themselves with Hog harness, BPW, double tank, bailout, deco bottle, SMB, reel just so that they can do a rec diver and sticking their noises up in the air talking about "failure points".

Well, I swim a lot too, but I'm not skilled as a lifeguard - becoming the best rescuer or hero is a nice thought but truthfully not a drive. As you said too, I dive for my own satisfaction, yet take any buddy responsibility seriously. One good reason to dive solo! You know the thing is, I can't recall seeing more than one or two guys decked out like that and I think they were actually experienced tech divers - the gear thing is just not a big focus of the divers I know or see, beyond having a lot of air. Now, catching dinner is another matter...

I was drawn to the tech stuff, debates, and stories, on SB - still am - and made some adjustments, yet despite having a lot of time under water I found that a lot of what I was reading on SB was undermining my confidence and encouraging a sense of foreboding. After awhile I concluded that was misplaced and that a huge volume of the cautionary bandwidth here is simply FUD - and that my diving is pretty tame relative to the risks.

 

[Dracunos]

Rofl.. Wow...

It's amazing how you guys find ways to argue about EEEEEEEverything (even sometimes when you agree with each other!) Good info, though

And a ton of.. potentially useful.. potential situations.. I suppose.

I'd like to add I met someone who's selling me his old gear and it has an inline octo! :O (air 2). I'll be sure to let you guys know if anyone gets killed.

 

[vladimir]

It's amazing how you guys find ways to argue about EEEEEEEverything (even sometimes when you agree with each other!)

It's because half of us know exactly what we're doing and the other half have their heads up their asses. You just have to decide who is who.

 

[DevonDiver]

Somepeople have their heads up other people's asses. Not sure if that's scuba related though...

 

[Dracunos]

I can't sleep tonight, so I'll post

Well, let me ask some questions and make some inexperienced-diver observations.. please correct me if I'm wrong (And please not in that crazed psycho style response people tend to enjoy in this forum).

First of all.. I think it's nice when I first saw it.. One less hose and dangling thinger to get in the way.. I was worried for a second about how one would use the BCD while using the inline octo, but then my whole five dive experience level started kicking in and I realized I could easily inflate orally, inflate while exhaling, and deflate by.. tugging that little valve on my right shoulder

Of course I started considering the negatives.. Obviously in that situation, if your hose is as short as a normal stage 2 hose w/octo setup you'll have to huddle closer to buddy breath.. Sure, a shorter hose while buddy breathing in open water may be a bit inconvenient, but what situation would be required where the lack of extra feet of hose would get someone actually hurt? I suppose theoretically someone may panic.. because the hose is too short and they can't maneuver as freely or something and die?.. Has this really actually happened? Or the length of the hose could be more likely to catch your mask at an angle and knock it off or something? But a longer hose may be more likely to get snagged on something, too.. We could go on and on.. And also.. Can't you get a long hose AND inline octo? Is that against the rules or something?

I also considered someone may grab the octo instead and start gulping at it.. But most people that would know it was an air source would probably know the primary stage two is supposed to be donated, no? I guess in a panic.. So could they really gather enough force (and leverage in open water) to yank that thing and rip my bcd inflator off my bcd and send me into a spinning torrent where I couldn't release my weights and I sank to the bottom and died or something? :O I guess it'd be inconvenient for them to be sucking on my BCD hose, and if after a couple seconds they decided they still didn't want to trade with me.. I guess I'd have to time my bcd inflates (not sure why I'd be inflating.. I'd probably be trying to ascend at that point?) with their exhalation?

Why is a long hose so important in open water diving? What safety feature does it really provide? I know it's more convenient, but I don't really like the idea of wrapping all this extra hose with me every single dive so I can be more convenient in that rare occasion that someone runs out of air.. People like to weave all this convenience and comfort level into safety in some way, and I can definitely see how a certain level of discomfort can make a stressful situation worse.. But how big of a deal is it really? Has anyone had someone freak out or something because the hose was too short? Has anyone shot up to the surface during an OW dive and thought.. Damn, if I didn't have that extra couple feet of hose we'd be dead right now.. I guess there is a chance, and perhaps it has even happened, but how likely is it? There's also a chance my buddy's guage can fail and I can also lose my mask or not be able to see for some other reason (my lasik corrections make vision blurry enough in water I doubt I'd even be able to read the display close up) and he'd need to check MY guages.. Should I add some extra hose to my console too and wrap it around my waist just in case? I suppose the chance of a complication requiring a longer console (if I was to not wrist mount) is less likely than a complication requiring a longer donated reg, right? But where exactly do you draw the line? I think we all just disagree on where that line should be drawn. I'm assuming the DIR method goes by events that tend to happen more often, such as events complicated by having a shorter hose in open water?

The value of being comfortable with your equipment is probably higher than I even know with my current level of experience, but that isn't really enough (to me) to justify completely condemning the other methods. In fact, if people are more comfortable with their own setups I think that would be even more of a positive comfort factor? If that is the main issue shouldn't the suggestion be to try as many setups as possible to find the best one for you?

I guess my priorities in that kind of emergency situations would be.. 1 Will it give me air? 2 Is it a stable method of delivering air? It won't die or break or something, right? (which is kinda the same as 1.. if it dies it won't be giving me air anymore) 3 everything else.

I'm interested in hearing real life observations, experiences, etc.. Not.. theoretical situations, 'it's just bad', 'you never know what can happen'(which works both ways, you know.. You can strangle yourself on your own long hose in theory ), or quoting of DIR philosophy, etc.. I've heard it before. (Not saying it's bad). Okay, goodnight guys.

 

[Peter Guy]

DanV -- I really hate to criticize one of your posts because you have so much more experience (and expertise) than this minnow. BUT, I do have to call BS on your comment regarding the Air2 type secondary as a bad idea BECAUSE it causes you to have such a "close encounter" during an OOA situation.

It is NOT the Air2 that might cause that but, instead, the wrong choice of length of hose on the primary.

What we seem to forget is that there are two different concepts for donating gas:

a. Secondary donate -- what appears to be the "normal" recreational setup (too often resulting in the dreaded "dangling octo" scenario); and

b. Primary donate -- which has a secondary in two flavors -- bungied around the neck (the so-called Tech Sh**t setup -- [note, this is from a local LDS and I just couldn't resist]) or the inline octo/inflator combo aka Air2/AirSource.

There is nothing about the inline octo/inflator setup that precludes having any length of hose on the primary (donating) reg, just as their is nothing specifically in the "Tech" setup that precludes having any length of hose on the primary. It really is a matter of personal (or team) choice. Unfortunately too many people who use the inline system haven't thought through their choice and end up with a primary hose that is too short for comfort (Dan's comment) -- but that is a criticism of the LDS that sold the system (and the buyer who didn't do her homework), not the system itself.

BTW, I use an AirSource with a 40" hose on my primary and it works very well for donating and not having that "up close and personal experience" that occurs when one still uses a 26" hose on the primary. (Of course, in OW, I also use either a 5 foot or 7 foot length because that gives me options I don't otherwise have when donating -- and options are generally a good thing.)

FN -- just to pile on -- give me a break. Do you REALLY believe someone can "strangle me" by coming up from above/behind me, to my left, reach down, grab the reg out of my mouth, push it down under my chin and pull it up so my mouth is clamped shut -- all the while holding onto me so that the pull of the hose doesn't rotate me in such a manner as to release 4+ feet of hose and freeing us both? How many arms (and how long) do you think the panicked dive has?

 

[danvolker]

DanV -- I really hate to criticize one of your posts because you have so much more experience (and expertise) than this minnow. BUT, I do have to call BS on your comment regarding the Air2 type secondary as a bad idea BECAUSE it causes you to have such a "close encounter" during an OOA situation.

It is NOT the Air2 that might cause that but, instead, the wrong choice of length of hose on the primary.

What we seem to forget is that there are two different concepts for donating gas:

a. Secondary donate -- what appears to be the "normal" recreational setup (too often resulting in the dreaded "dangling octo" scenario); and

b. Primary donate -- which has a secondary in two flavors -- bungied around the neck (the so-called Tech Sh**t setup -- [note, this is from a local LDS and I just couldn't resist]) or the inline octo/inflator combo aka Air2/AirSource.

There is nothing about the inline octo/inflator setup that precludes having any length of hose on the primary (donating) reg, just as their is nothing specifically in the "Tech" setup that precludes having any length of hose on the primary. It really is a matter of personal (or team) choice. Unfortunately too many people who use the inline system haven't thought through their choice and end up with a primary hose that is too short for comfort (Dan's comment) -- but that is a criticism of the LDS that sold the system (and the buyer who didn't do her homework), not the system itself.

BTW, I use an AirSource with a 40" hose on my primary and it works very well for donating and not having that "up close and personal experience" that occurs when one still uses a 26" hose on the primary. (Of course, in OW, I also use either a 5 foot or 7 foot length because that gives me options I don't otherwise have when donating -- and options are generally a good thing.)

FN -- just to pile on -- give me a break. Do you REALLY believe someone can "strangle me" by coming up from above/behind me, to my left, reach down, grab the reg out of my mouth, push it down under my chin and pull it up so my mouth is clamped shut -- all the while holding onto me so that the pull of the hose doesn't rotate me in such a manner as to release 4+ feet of hose and freeing us both? How many arms (and how long) do you think the panicked dive has?

Hi Peter,
You bring up a good point. What I was thinking when I wrote this, was the "way" I expected the Air 2 to be used, by someone trained in typical OW style....Without any thought for buddy needs, the expectation would be that the diver who bought an Air2 would want to KEEP his primary reg in his own mouth, and would be uncomfortable donating this..would have not been trained to do the donation of primary.....in this kind of a diver, the air2 is likely to be the regulator offered/donated, and as short as the hose is, this would lead to a pain in the butt air share to the surface.
I agree with you 100% that the diver should have a long enough primary so that he could donate it, and switch to the air2 for himself.
If in fact, this thread evolves to the idea that the use of the Air 2 should mean diving a 5 foot primary hose, and using an Air2 for your own backup reg( donating your primary in an OOA scenario), then I can offer no useful critisism at all for recreational diving. If this was how the thread began, I would not have posted to it
Regards,
Dan

 

[halocline]

I can't sleep tonight, so I'll post ...

First of all.. I think it's nice when I first saw it.. One less hose and dangling thinger to get in the way.....But a longer hose may be more likely to get snagged on something, too.. We could go on and on.. And also.. Can't you get a long hose AND inline octo?....

Why is a long hose so important in open water diving? What safety feature does it really provide? I know it's more convenient, but I don't really like the idea of wrapping all this extra hose with me every single dive so I can be more convenient in that rare occasion that someone runs out of air...

Okay, goodnight guys.

I grabbed a few things from your post, including the 'goodnight' because you must have been exhausted after composing such a lengthy narrative..

A few observations:

What is a "dangling thinger" (It sounds like a porn star's name) No need to dangle anything in diving, you secure everything you take with you, regardless of gear configuration. The long hose routing is LESS likely to get entangled in something; the standard recreational loop over the right shoulder is far more protruding than a long hose routed in the hogarthian manner.

You can use a long hose and an octo/inflator, in fact I would highly recommend to anyone using an octo/inflator that they use a long primary hose. That is unless you enjoy dealing with an OOA diver on a very short leash.

A long hose may not be crucial in OW diving, but it is more enjoyable to me. The regulator is more comfortable in your mouth, there is far less pull/push on the 2nd stage, your octo is very conveniently suspended just below your jaw, and your inflator can be a small one on a short hose, conveniently tucked under a bungie on your left shoulder strap. With the octo/inflator, the mechanism itself is bulkier and it must be on a longer-than-necessary inflator hose so that it can comfortably reach your mouth. Since you deal with the inflator several times on each dive, having the extra bulk and hose length is FAR more of an inconvenience than simply carrying an extra LP hose.

So, in short, the long hose (I use 5ft) is more comfortable, convenient, and enjoyable to dive with than the standard rec 28-30" hose, and that's not even considering the air sharing benefits. The octo/inflator IMO, is the sort of thing that sounds good in the store, but in reality does nothing to improve diving. Right up the dive gear's marketing alley!

 

[Dracunos]

Thanks for taking the time to read my long post.

What is a "dangling thinger" (It sounds like a porn star's name) No need to dangle anything in diving, you secure everything you take with you, regardless of gear configuration. The long hose routing is LESS likely to get entangled in something; the standard recreational loop over the right shoulder is far more protruding than a long hose routed in the hogarthian manner.

I try not to dangle, but sometimes the octo pops out of the stupid strap in the rental jackets, etc. Either way- it's one less hose to worry about, and that will always be a benefit to me. May I ask what prevents stowing the extra length of standard hose in a different way than it's normal position floating above your head and to the right (which I agree isn't quite the streamlining I expected first time I wore it)? Without an octo down there, what are the dangers of simply routing it under your arm?

You can use a long hose and an octo/inflator, in fact I would highly recommend to anyone using an octo/inflator that they use a long primary hose. That is unless you enjoy dealing with an OOA diver on a very short leash.

I will definitely consider the extra length of primary hose, for various reasons. I may decide go with miflex and get a foot or two longer at that point. I will definitely be at least trying it out and deciding from there.

I had seen the setup online before but was surprised at how streamlined this hose actually looked. Of course it's got some extra bulk, though. It seems about as long as a normal jacket inflator hose (I thought it was always at a length that was relatively easily accessible for oral inflation?) I will definitely be using it, trying it out, etc, and not just accepting that it's there as a PADI requirement(suggestion?) and ignoring it until the emergency arises It also doesn't look quite as comfortable as a regular regulator. The biggest thing for me, though, is just the fact that inline octo is kinda rare, so in the occasions where someone who's not your buddy or familiar with you is OOA it can add a bit of confusion. Not really the inline octo's fault, though, and I'm sure in lh/sh new divers have been known to try and yank the octo, not knowing the primary was to be donated.

It really feels sometimes like people don't like it because it's one of those 'too good to be true' type deals (which I understand), but have a lot of these folk actually even tried it, tested it, used it, etc? I think this variation in setup is at least worth considering, as long as it's safe.