Air3 on BP/W setup

[DevonDiver]

But mostly I think that the incessant bullying and seeding of doubt over configuration choices is damaging to the sport and unnerving to divers.

Oh..pleeeaaasse. This is debate. A back-and-forth sharing of opinions... the defence of personal choices. There's no need for anyone to get upset by it.

There should be 'seeding of doubt'. That's reality, and it is not a bad thing for some divers to face that reality occasionally. Just because PADI teaches 'shiny happy diving' doesn't mean it is so...

In my mind, there are two types of divers:

1) People who haven't thought about or chosen to optimise their equipment configuration, procedures and techniques.

2) People who have investigated and sought to optimise their diving.

So, unless you think that the equipment configuration and procedures you were taught on your OW course, or sold by your LDS, were perfect, then there should always be room for improvement.

Seeking optimisation is better than not thinking at all. Asking for advice on Scubaboard, or researching through other means, is significant of a good, progressive attitude with diving. You have to expand your knowledge, in order to improve things.

Some divers turn to 'cutting edge' diving activities, like tech and cave, to provide the inspiration for that optimisation. The logic for that is strong, even if it might lead to over-optimisation for their specific needs.

 

[fnfalman]

The whole rational for the DIR system is to "be able" to handle a diver who is seriously/dangerously out of air, even in a total blackout or total siltout...

EXACTLY. But how many rec divers go into a cave or penetrate a wreck and just happen to be next to a DIR diver?

DIR training focuses on teamwork and focus on very specialized diving. Not everything it teaches translates to rec diving.

fnfalman, someone who is DIR in your area needs to step up and show you how this works..you appear to like to think things out for yourself, so reading all this banter is not going to do much for you--you need to actually try this long hose DIR method, and then tell us what you think

Regards,
DanV

You assumed that I haven't done my homework.:blinking:

You know...the photo of the colorful guy with the 5-ft long yellow hose 2nd stage donated to a pink-masked person and the short black hose that goes into his mouth...that was me in my rescue class.

 

[fnfalman]

Wat? No one said anyone is dying from not using the long hose. People are saying that it doesn't "choke you to death" when you can't "untangle" the hose. People are calling shenanigans on your post.

Cute pic btw.

I said that there's a potential for choking hazard when you use the long hose/short hose configuration. It's a spurious argument just to make a point that everything that you DIR type think that is so hot also has drawback if looked at in a different way.

Thousands upon thousands of people dive every year. Many of them are professional divers (you know, like the ones that take all those pretty underwater videos) diving blue water, diving in depth excess of 200-ft, diving on trimix, who don't use the long hose/short hose setup. Of course, they don't know nothin' about no divin' unlike you guys, right?

Yeah. Nice pic. Thats what I was gonna say?

But is it to much to ask that you might trade in the SS1 and buy your buddy some regs. Huh.

What SS1? I was using the B2 2nd stage and M1 octo. Besides my buddies should be providing for their own equipment.

Are you in the habit of providing diving equipment for your buddies? If that's the case then I'd love to be your buddy. Perhaps you can lend me or buy me a set of double tank and some black, solid fins so that I can take a Fundies class?

 

[fnfalman]

I I think that experience and skill development with your own gear improves safety, confidence and enjoyment more than worrying whether your configuration could be better, or more to the point, that it's fatally flawed.

It seems like you and I are selfish divers and we only care about our own dives.

Everybody else who sport the long hose/short hose are conscientious about other divers' safety than we are. I wonder if they carry the double tank so that they can feed more than one OOA divers? Or is it so that they can stay down longer? I wonder if they pack that pony bottle just so that they can help out lil' ol' me?

Actually, I am a selfish diver. I dive for my own enjoyment and nobody else's. I don't go out diving worrying about how others configure their gears or which level of Jedi training they had attained. I rig my gears up for my own convenience. I place my knife and my shears where I want them to be so that I can cut myself out in case of trouble. I don't place my knife and shears so that others can use it. I place my flashlights where I can reach them and not for others to use. I place my SMB where it's easy for me to reach and deploy...ad nauseaum.

 

[gmanstan]

Well since it seems that the majority of the time the OOA diver rips the primary away or is handed it,does it really matter what you choose to use as the secondary? I personally solo most of the time and prefer my SS1 to keep things streamlined, but I have no problem breathing out of it and using a shoulder dump or back dump while surfacing.I also have a Pony I use at times.
I think what is more important is actually practicing using your spare air, Air 2, Octo or switching to your pony so that if you are ever in a situation you will be familiar enough with your alternate breathing options to use them .

 

[danvolker]

EXACTLY. But how many rec divers go into a cave or penetrate a wreck and just happen to be next to a DIR diver?

DIR training focuses on teamwork and focus on very specialized diving. Not everything it teaches translates to rec diving.



You assumed that I haven't done my homework.:blinking:

You know...the photo of the colorful guy with the 5-ft long yellow hose 2nd stage donated to a pink-masked person and the short black hose that goes into his mouth...that was me in my rescue class.

There are large numbers of DIR divers "doing" recreational dives all over the world. Even here in South Florida, on the recreational dives in Palm Beach, there are plenty of other DIR ( or DIRish) divers that I meet when I go out on a charter boat. DIR thinking has permeated into even the questions asked by brand new divers just getting into diving....
Why?
For one reason, most training agencies will not buck the DIVE Equipment Industry--most will not throw the BS flag at new gear trotted out by the big mfg's.
For them to do this, would be nearly as improbable as having had ATT or Sprint, running ads on TV 3 years ago, about how foolish the behavior of texting while driving a car is....back then, they could have nipped bad behavior in the bud, but this would have been bad for corporate profits. Today, if it happened, this could be damage control for a movement already underway--not the same.

Over the last decade, recreational training agencies have made atrocious calls on diver safety....how can you even imagine letting so many "never-evers" into diving, that you have to start saying that "Airshares" are not to be taught, because they could cause both divers to drown?

When big money is running a game, big ideals and what is best for us, are not going to be factored in.
You could find many gear combos out right now, that are horrendously bad for diver safety. The only thing preventing rampant diver deaths, is that diving is normally so damn easy, that almost anybody can do it...

The agencies AND GEAR MANUFACTURERS count on this.

But, there will always be situations that can arise, when things are not so easy--and when lives will be on the line.....when one of these faces you or a friend, you want to be doing or using stuff YOU have clearly thought through----rather than counting on a mass market manufacturer to have created optimally safe gear for you.
And if you should find yourself driving down the road in your car, texting on your brand new phone ( clipped to the steering wheel by an AT&T accessory to make phone use easier while driving) , who will be worse if you hit some kid in the street---you for not thinking about what's wrong with the driving accessory and texting--or them for selling it to you?

Regards,
DanV

 

[ktomlinson]

Fnfalman, you talk like DIR has a monopoly on the long hose. Serious question for you, have you dove a long hose configuration? Plenty of people dive a long hose that do not subscribe to other DIR practices, OW divers included.

 

[spoolin01]

Over the last decade, recreational training agencies have made atrocious calls on diver safety....how can you even imagine letting so many "never-evers" into diving, that you have to start saying that "Airshares" are not to be taught, because they could cause both divers to drown?

When big money is running a game, big ideals and what is best for us, are not going to be factored in.
You could find many gear combos out right now, that are horrendously bad for diver safety. The only thing preventing rampant diver deaths, is that diving is normally so damn easy, that almost anybody can do it...

The agencies AND GEAR MANUFACTURERS count on this.

But, there will always be situations that can arise, when things are not so easy--and when lives will be on the line.....when one of these faces you or a friend, you want to be doing or using stuff YOU have clearly thought through----rather than counting on a mass market manufacturer to have created optimally safe gear for you.

For my edification, could you provide a handful of examples of the atrocious calls and horrendously bad equipment you have in mind? I don't pretend to follow all this, but I can't say I've ever seen gear that fits this bill, so I'm curious. Otherwise, this reads as at least a bit hysterical.

 

[spoolin01]

Oh..pleeeaaasse. This is debate. A back-and-forth sharing of opinions... the defence of personal choices. There's no need for anyone to get upset by it.

There should be 'seeding of doubt'. That's reality, and it is not a bad thing for some divers to face that reality occasionally. Just because PADI teaches 'shiny happy diving' doesn't mean it is so...

In my mind, there are two types of divers:

1) People who haven't thought about or chosen to optimise their equipment configuration, procedures and techniques.

2) People who have investigated and sought to optimise their diving.

So, unless you think that the equipment configuration and procedures you were taught on your OW course, or sold by your LDS, were perfect, then there should always be room for improvement.

Seeking optimisation is better than not thinking at all. Asking for advice on Scubaboard, or researching through other means, is significant of a good, progressive attitude with diving. You have to expand your knowledge, in order to improve things.

Some divers turn to 'cutting edge' diving activities, like tech and cave, to provide the inspiration for that optimisation. The logic for that is strong, even if it might lead to over-optimisation for their specific needs.

Hmm, in reviewing the thread, I did fly off a bit considering that the discussion on this topic has been pretty reasoned - not much of the usual 'my way or you'll die' histrionics. I'll blame it on the toothache and residual agitation from harangues in other topics.

I do think there is a not-so-fine line that is regularly crossed between challenging and educating people, and using the threat of disaster as a rhetorical cudgel. Most rec diving just doesn't present a threat of death or injury so long as you heed NDL and proper ascents - and equipment choices play virtually no role in either of those. Given that, I'll stick to my opinion that diving and divers would be better off if more energy and wealth were expended diving, instead of on endless, largely pointless, and arguably dubious upgrades in gear, and the distraction that process entails.

While I share your interest in improvement and optimization as an ongoing process, I can't agree that perfection is an advisable or compelling goal for rec diving - if that's what you mean - for the need of self-preservation. In the context of most diving, it seems quite a biased take on the risks, given the state of training and gear presently. I'd be spending much more time and money improving my driving skills, researching automotive engineering, and going through the components of my vehicles for maintenance and upgrade, if I were simply addressing risk.

 

[fnfalman]

But, there will always be situations that can arise, when things are not so easy--and when lives will be on the line.....when one of these faces you or a friend, you want to be doing or using stuff YOU have clearly thought through----rather than counting on a mass market manufacturer to have created optimally safe gear for you.
And if you should find yourself driving down the road in your car, texting on your brand new phone ( clipped to the steering wheel by an AT&T accessory to make phone use easier while driving) , who will be worse if you hit some kid in the street---you for not thinking about what's wrong with the driving accessory and texting--or them for selling it to you?

Regards,
DanV

I'm confused. How does diving with either an inline octo or a regular octo rigged up rec stylke equate to driving while cell phoning or texting?