AED during local lake certs?

[Calle Roo]

Just a quick question. If a LDS has an AED readily available, why wouldn't they bring it to the dive site while doing certs or evn just diving? Its the size of a briefcase and could save a life...

Just wondering, as I went on a day trip with my friend who was instructing, and I offered to bring mine as Im EMT cert, but he said it wasn't necessary.

 

[AbyssalPlains]

You're absolutely right - they should definitely bring their AED.

 

[Doc]

Depends on why the "LDS had an AED readily available".

If they had it on hand at the store to cover that physical locale (for whatever reason), maybe they have it just where they wanted it. Possibly the stay-at-the-shop owner has a bad ticker?

Turning your offer down to bring your own AED, or merely telling you not to bring it to the event, that sounds kind of dumb.... unless there was an access/proximity issue and they couldn't guarantee the security of your possessions.

Rather have it than not, arguments about efficacy aside.

 

[spectrum]

Well it could have saved a life locally this summer so I wouldn't call it unnescessary. This is especially true since many instructors do an awful job of teaching new divers how to gear up and get into the water with minimal stress.

As mentioned unless it has a mandate to remain at the shop the divesite would be a good place to have it.

I keep an O2 kit and secondary cylinder with me just in case and I'm just typical divers.

Pete

 

[String]

If you're lucky and rich enough to be able to afford an AED it would make sense to me at least to take it every you take your normal O2 and first aid kit. It is after all, first aid.

(That is of course unless there is training going on at the other site as well that may need it)

 

[FireDiver443]

I'm all for AEDs being as common as fire extinguishers out there, but it's important to remember that the AED will only function/administer a shock when it detects ventricular fibrillation. Sure, it's good to have on hand, but most recent AHA guidelines suggest that unless you're dealing with a witnessed cardiac arrest with the defibrillator immediately and readily available (I don't think the time necessary to bring an unconscious diver to the surface qualifies), the first care to be administered is 2 minutes of good quality CPR (minimum 100 compressions/minute), 30 compressions to 2 ventilations with full chest recoil prior to application of the AED... Eisenberg criteria aside (Eisenberg: chances of successful conversion from ventricular fibrillation (VF) decreases 50% for each minute VF persists).

Yes, I agree completely if there's a AED available, bring it along, but it's not always the be-all, end-all, cure-all that folks believe it to be. In my limited experience as a professional paramedic since the mid-1980s, patients suffering from cardiac arrest after a drowning/near-drowning incident usually aren't in VF, so the AED would do nothing for them.

Make sure your O2 & First Aid kits include a pocket mask/barrier device or some form of manual resuscitator (bag-valve mask, etc) and that folks are familiar with their effective and proper use. Be up on your CPR skills and make sure your emergency plan includes the ability to summon your local Advanced Life Support Provider. If there's an AED available, ok, but just remember it might just tell you "no shock advised... check breathing... check pulse.... if necessary, begin CPR."


And please, please, PLEASE: Use the AED safely. Remove the patient from standing/pooling water (that can conduct electicity to you) and ALWAYS MAKE SURE no one is in contact with the patient BEFORE pushing the flashing orange button.

 

[Calle Roo]

Nicely put FD. Was like I was ready a manual. Where on the forum is more info on general first aid, provided by Medical Professionals? Is there a forum Im overlooking?

 

[don Francisco]

The shop owner may have had a sound financial reason for not bringing an AED to a dive site.

It would depend on the conditions under which he had the AED in the first place, the extent of his training in using an AED, and the Good Samaritan laws in his state.

The legal protections offered to voluntary responders vary tremendously state to state but generally protect only unpaid good samaritans. As a dive shop/instructor, bringing an AED and using it on a student might constitute an expansion of his contractual obligation and open a legal can of worms.

Since he's already taken money from his student, it would be argued that the Good Samaritan protections should not apply, and the victim's right to redress through lawsuit for injuries suffered, shouldn't be unduely restricted.

I know it sounds perverse (it is perverse), but the bias in laws in most states is to protect the right to sue, judges are not prone to dismissing suits, and laws protecting first responders are extremely limited. The sad reality is that good samaritans are often rewarded for their kindness and social conscience with a thank you, but.... lawsuit.

 

[Calle Roo]

I see don. I never look at the gray areas of a situation. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. We saved their life, but burned their chest, we're getting sued. Makes sense.

 

[sporket]

I'm all for AEDs being as common as fire extinguishers out there, but it's important to remember that the AED will only function/administer a shock when it detects ventricular fibrillation. Sure, it's good to have on hand, but most recent AHA guidelines suggest that unless you're dealing with a witnessed cardiac arrest with the defibrillator immediately and readily available (I don't think the time necessary to bring an unconscious diver to the surface qualifies), the first care to be administered is 2 minutes of good quality CPR (minimum 100 compressions/minute), 30 compressions to 2 ventilations with full chest recoil prior to application of the AED... Eisenberg criteria aside (Eisenberg: chances of successful conversion from ventricular fibrillation (VF) decreases 50% for each minute VF persists).

Yes, I agree completely if there's a AED available, bring it along, but it's not always the be-all, end-all, cure-all that folks believe it to be. In my limited experience as a professional paramedic since the mid-1980s, patients suffering from cardiac arrest after a drowning/near-drowning incident usually aren't in VF, so the AED would do nothing for them.

Make sure your O2 & First Aid kits include a pocket mask/barrier device or some form of manual resuscitator (bag-valve mask, etc) and that folks are familiar with their effective and proper use. Be up on your CPR skills and make sure your emergency plan includes the ability to summon your local Advanced Life Support Provider. If there's an AED available, ok, but just remember it might just tell you "no shock advised... check breathing... check pulse.... if necessary, begin CPR."


And please, please, PLEASE: Use the AED safely. Remove the patient from standing/pooling water (that can conduct electicity to you) and ALWAYS MAKE SURE no one is in contact with the patient BEFORE pushing the flashing orange button.

Just curious, what rhythm have you found most common for drowning and or near drowning?