Advice/opinions on first gear setup

[diverbecky]

Hi everyone!

My fiancé and I are planning to buy our first gear set ups and I was hoping to get some opinions. We have a good relationship with our local dive shop, they certified us, certified his parents 20 years ago, and we will be going on a group trip to Belize through the shop this summer.

I am mainly interested in warm water diving and traveling. My fiancé has a friend that dives at a local lake, so he is interested in that as well, and may eventually like to do cold water diving.

The dive shop only sells scubapro gear. I feel the most comfortable with buying a package from our dive shop, but we are considering buying our regulators from deep6. My fiancé is also interested in getting a backplate and wing set up from deep6. I prefer a bcd.

For BCDs we are interested in the scubapro ladyhawk for me, and either knighthawk for fiancé or a bp/w from deep6.

For regulators, we were thinking about the scubapro mk11/c350, or the mk21/s560, or getting regulators from deep6. If we went with scubapro, we are also thinking about getting the air2 instead of a regular octopus.

For dive computers, we are considering the scubapro Aladin h matrix or going cheaper and getting the zoop novo. The scubapro one would be air integrated. There is also a wrist mounted scubapro one called the Aladin sport, which is not air integrated.

I am interested if anyone here has experience with deep6 regulators or using air2. I like the idea of getting our gear from the local dive shop, but I also like what I've read about deep6. Any input or advice is appreciated.

 

[tbone1004]

why do you have a preference for a regular bcd? most all of the women that I know have gone to bp/w's since they contour to lady curves quite a bit better.

For travel diving, I would strongly recommend contacting Deep Sea Supply and talking with Tobin. He posts on here as @cool_hardware52 and is a great guy with some fantastic gear. You will come out several hundred dollars cheaper going that route as well as getting some of the best dive gear ever made, and no I don't get paid to say that.

On the reg side. For salt water travel diving, I wouldn't dive either the MK21 or the MK11. The MK25 is a massive upgrade from the MK21 in terms of hose routing, and is something you are frankly foolish not to go with. That said, it is still an unsealed piston design which means you have to be a bit more meticulous with your gear during the rinsing side. The MK11 is an unsealed diaphragm, so suffers the same issues. They are both pretty low on the recommendation list for regulators that I would ever recommend to someone.

Both the C350 and S560 are good enough regs though I'm not a fan of the plastic air barrels. I think you would be a bit happier going with the Deep6 regulators vs. those options. Alternatively you can search around and find some used reg sets if you are comfortable doing that.
I have dove the Deep6 regs from early prototypes up to the current production models in caves. They breathe as well or better than anything on the market right now, and fit and finish is right up there with the best of them. 2 year service interval with first service parts included and free labor if you send it back, option to DIY service *something Scubapro strictly forbids in the US*, no warranties based on service interval, and you have a recipe for a great experience.
My word of advice here is if you purchase the Deep6 regs, to get either two doubles sets, or one doubles, and one single. If you are a travelling diver, you want to have at least a spare first stage with you. In event of a failure at the surface, it allows you to swap over in less than 5 minutes and not have to rely on a rental regulator or miss a dive. A lot of people tout international service, but that's BS. You're going to have to trust that the shop has parts in stock, trust that they aren't slammed, trust that they are going to do a quality job on your regulator, pay through the nose for rush service, and then still miss at least the rest of that days dives. That's a lot of blind trust in an area that no one that I dive with believes in, so we take at least an extra first stage, and basic tools with us when we travel.
You NEED an IP gauge if you own your own reg set, Dive Gear Express has them for pretty cheap. This is non-negotiable. It is the only way to tell the health of your regulators. Every diver should own one period, end of discussion. It can predict all sorts of weird things that may happen, and arguably is just as important if you are renting regulators to make sure they are performing properly

Lots of threads on the AirII, personally I don't think they are safe, and if students come to me with them for training, they are required to also have a secondary second stage on their reg set as I have seen a lot of issues with real world use of them. It's great in theory, but it falls flat on its face in reality. People will talk about them for saving a hose, but it comes at the penalty of not being able to use a rental regulator without swapping that hose, or not being able to power inflate a BCD if you have to or choose to rent one so it is extremely limiting from that standpoint.

I would avoid Scubapro computers, they are very overpriced and underfeatured, same with Suunto.
DG03 Computer and Accessories | Dive Gear Express®
That with the DSS bungee mount blows the computers you mentioned clear out of the water and has the capability to use AI as well. It's not a Shearwater, but for the price, I have yet to find something that can beat it.

 

[outofofficebrb]

I have a Ladyhawk and do local cold water diving with it and travel extensively to warm water destinations as well. I really like it, though I am also interested in a BP/W. I just haven't tried one. The Hydros Pro wasn't out when I got my Ladyhawk, but I would have also given that a whirl since it's easier to travel with and has enough lift for local conditions.

I agree with @tbone1004 on many points - get the MK25 first stage. I am not a fan of the AirII, but everyone is different. I like having a separate Octo for the reasons he mentioned and logistically when there are failures or a real emergency situation.

Is your LDS marketing the parts for life program on Scubapro? If so, just know that you have to buy the BC, reg+octo, and computer all within a year for that to work. I do have a Suunto dive computer and like how easy it is to use and intuitive. Some folks complain about its conservativeness...I haven't had any issues with it even on back to back liveaboard diving days. I considered Scubapro regs but in the end, the parts for life with Aqua Lung swung me without having to buy a full set of something since their computers did not appeal to me.

Please keep us updated on what you decide! Happy shopping!

 

[stuartv]

I don't see a hose routing advantage with the Mk25 for normal recreational (i.e. back mount, single tank) diving. I think the hose routing advantage of the Mk25 really applies to use in back mount doubles and maybe in side mount. There is a clear disadvantage in terms of maintenance required, being an unsealed piston. The Mk21 would be good, though.

I have heard nothing but good things about the Deep6 Signature (formerly Aegean) regs.

No way I would spend money on an Air2. I know a lot of people have them and like them. But, I suspect most of them have not ever had them when they got into a situation where they had to share air or otherwise really use it. Plus, if you go with a regular octo, you always have the option of still using your reg set with a rental BCD. E.g. if you're traveling, you could take your regs and leave your own BCD at home if you needed to, to save room and/or weight in your luggage.

If your husband likes the BP/W idea, go for it! And consider possibly waiting until he gets it and try it for yourself before you decide on a BCD for yourself. You might find that you like the BP/W better than any other options.

Another BP/W option to consider is the single tank package from DGX.

DGX Custom - DGX Singles Harness / Backplate / Wing Package

$299 and the wing is a relabeled Dive Rite Travel EXP wing. I.e. it's good quality. Dive Gear Express has customer service that is not beaten by anyone. And the DGX Return Policy is the BEST in the industry, I believe.

If you like your LDS, buying your computer from them is not a bad idea, in that they will be there for you if you have an issues with it. If they are big on ScubaPro, you might want to check out the ScubaPro Galileo 2, which came out last weekend. I played with one a bit on Saturday and it seems to be a very nice computer. I would personally choose the Shearwater Perdix AI over the G2. But, for recreational diving, I don't think you would regret buying either one. If you're willing to spend that much money.

If you want to get something less expensive, then I would not look at ScubaPro. I would wait a bit for the Deep6 computer to finally be released. It is supposed to be priced at $139, I think. Otherwise, I would look for an Oceanic Geo 2 or Oceanic Atom 3.0 or 3.1.

 

[outofofficebrb]

No way I would spend money on an Air2. I know a lot of people have them and like them. But, I suspect most of them have not ever had them when they got into a situation where they had to share air or otherwise really use it. Plus, if you go with a regular octo, you always have the option of still using your reg set with a rental BCD. E.g. if you're traveling, you could take your regs and leave your own BCD at home if you needed to, to save room and/or weight in your luggage.

I touched upon this subject with @tbone1004 last week. I totally agree with you as well, @stuartv. After coming back to your thread and reading your comments as well, I have something to share that happened on Sunday when I was out diving with a group. A friend of mine who has the Air II connected all of her gear, turned on her air, and there was a hissing noise. Yup, an air leak somewhere. Further inspection and our ears told us that it was coming from the low pressure inflator hose attachment. She didn't want to call the dive and didn't have another BC she could use because there was none and because she didn't have a traditional octo even if we did have a spare BC. She decided to dive anyway without the LP hose attached. She made sure to tell everyone to not go to her if an issue comes up because she won't have spare air/reg to share in an emergency. In short, my thoughts were, in an emergency, I'll try to remember that. Thankfully, she's not my buddy. She inflated her bc orally under water and at the surface the entire dive. Kudos to her.

So there is a real world example. One might say that she should carefully checked her gear and called the dive, but with so many possible issues, I think it's just easier to have a traditional octo for peace of mind. Also, should I need to replace or fix something, a traditional corrugated inflator hose is probably much easier to swap out or as @stuartv mentioned, I could just connect to another BC easily if my BC became an issue.

 

[Ready4Launch]

Lots of threads on the AirII, personally I don't think they are safe, and if students come to me with them for training, they are required to also have a secondary second stage on their reg set as I have seen a lot of issues with real world use of them. It's great in theory, but it falls flat on its face in reality.

Genuinely interested to know more. Can you please elaborate the real world issues? Also, are you against the AirII specifically, or just that general style of secondary reg (i.e. Atomic SS1, etc.)?

 

[lexvil]

I've used ari 2's for years and have never had an issue, my older one has had one service in the past 15 years and even though that one stays one my travel wing and has never missed a beat I just keep a standard inflator and hose with my other spare parts. I picked up an Argonaut double hose recently and use a slimline XS octo with that for sharing if needed but keep the air2 ( newer one is used with cold water set up, so far it's been serviced every two years which is to much but it's only $25 due to the parts for life) any way for me it's easy to replace if there is a problem and it's nice to have another air source hanging there.

 

[Colliam7]

My fiancé and I are planning to buy our first gear set ups . . . We have a good relationship with our local dive shop, . . . I am mainly interested in warm water diving and traveling. My fiancé has a friend that dives at a local lake . . . and may eventually like to do cold water diving. The dive shop only sells scubapro gear. I feel the most comfortable with buying a package from our dive shop, but we are considering buying our regulators from deep6. . . . If we went with scubapro, we are also thinking about getting the air2 instead of a regular octopus. . . . My fiancé is also interested in getting a backplate and wing set up from deep6. I prefer a bcd.

In reading you post, I picked out some comments on which to offer comment, or ask questions.

First, good for you, on deciding to get your own gear! You will not regret it. Just be sure you use it, regularly!

Second, I have no vested interest in what style, brand or model of equipment YOU buy / use, or where you buy it. That is not a negative statement in any way, simply a comment on where my thoughts are 'coming from'. IOW, whatever you buy, and how much you spend, doesn't affect me. So, I will share what are admittedly my personal, biased thoughts on gear, but have no skin in the game, so to speak, with regard to your purchases.

Third, any comments I offer are based on my particular experience, and training, and consequent preferences. They may or may not be applicable to you.

1. It sounds like you may have a slightly stronger sense of loyalty to the LDS than your fiance. I think working with a good LDS is great. In fact, I recommend it to my students / divers. Developing a good working relationship with a local vendor is a good idea, where it works for both parties. But, I have bought quite a bit of gear online over the years, where I wanted a brand / model / product my LDS didn't have / couldn't get. Both approaches work. One thing I would NOT do is buy a pre-configured 'package' from any vendor. If you / your fiance decide on a particular set of Scubapro gear, for example, ask the LDS to give you a 'package' price (i.e. a reduced price) for the whole configuration. But, don't buy something that you DON'T want (e.g. it is not exactly what you want), just because the shop / vendor has bundled it with some things you DO want, in a 'package'.

2. I am curious about your identification of Deep 6 as a possible vendor. Is there a particular reason you are looking at it, other than price? It is a relatively new vendor, although the owner / founder has a lot of experience / expertise and really knows equipment. But, there are any number of other online vendors, with a longer history, so I am just curious what it is about Deep 6 (regulators in particular) that causes you to look at them. I am not suggesting that you don't buy from Deep 6, nor implying anything negative about the compnay. Rather, I am just curious how that particular vendor came into your mix.

3. Integrated inflator / alternate air source units are a touchy subject. I have found more than a few users of Air2 (and equivalent models in other brand lines) to be especially, shall we say, enthusiastic about them, particularly if others offer negative comments. Nonetheless, I don't use them, don't recommend them, and don't care for them, although I have tried them (both Scubapro and Zeagle) because I really wanted to have a first hand feel for their functionality, beyond the service bench where I also see them at times. Personally, I see no advantage in terms of streamlining (the 'one less hose' argument is simply not substantive in that context), I definitely don't think they are as functional in the rare but serious situation of an OOA emergency, they are somewhat more complicated to service (and the kits cost a bit more than a standard second stage kit) and, having used them, I feel that a more standard configuration (alternate air source on a bungee necklace, with a traditional LPI) is less cumbersome and possibly safer in an emergency. As I said, my comments are based on what I do, what my experience has been, and what I therefore prefer. It isn't a matter of any hostility toward the equipment or divers who use them. In fact, I have friends and dive buddies, some of whom are also SB users, who use Air2's, Nonetheless, I have different preferences, based on my experience. Others may wish to offer their own perspective.

 

[divad]

most all of the women that I know have gone to bp/w's since they contour to lady curves quite a bit better.
.

They also work better with man-boobs.

 

[tbone1004]

Genuinely interested to know more. Can you please elaborate the real world issues? Also, are you against the AirII specifically, or just that general style of secondary reg (i.e. Atomic SS1, etc.)?

Air2 is used like Kleenex, Q-Tips, Velcro, Kevlar, etc. while it is a scubapro product, my issues with it are as a design concept as opposed to a specific regulator. There are very few regulators I have serious issues with.

Now, real world issues on a theoretical level
People talk about the following points
Makes their gear more streamlined because it is one less hose. Yes it removes a hose, however it comes at the cost of having to use a longer corrugated hose and not being able to retain it close to the body easily. This actually makes it less streamlined than a primary donate regulator setup.
Makes their gear less complicated because it's one less hose. BS, you go from industry standard fittings on the QD's to requiring a custom hose for that product. If that hose fails, you now have to find the hose specific to that inflator *they aren't a standardized fitting across brands*. If you can't find one locally, then you not only lose power inflation which is a luxury to have though certainly not a dive ending issue, you lose your secondary regulator for air. That's a big problem. I think DGX is now important some regulator hose adapters for them which makes the compatibility less of a problem since it still uses a standard reg hose, but it's extra steps, and an extra o-ring to fail.
It also ties your regulator to your BC. If your BC fails for whatever reason, your regulator set is now not compatible with any other BCD unless it has an Air2 with the same connection as yours. If it doesn't have one, you lose your power inflate ability because the QD isn't compatible, but you also don't have a secondary second stage which is a safety issue since buddy breathing is no longer taught.
It ties your BC to your regulator. Same issue as above though more of a nuisance than anything but a potential safety issue. If your reg set has an issue and you have to use a rental set, you lose the ability to power inflate. This isn't a safety issue until your muscle memory goes to grab your Air2 in an OOA scenario and it isn't connected to anything.

So, those are the problems with it on paper. The compatibility issue for me is the biggest deal breaker and a SUPER annoying one.

In real world use. Deflating the BCD while breathing on it is something that makes me laugh every time someone tries to use them. It is never graceful, and someone almost always has a real problem with it. Lots of documented stories about them on here, many fairly recently.
My students are not allowed to use them in their open water training, no ifs ands or buts. If their rental or personal gear has them, they are required to have a normal second stage on a suicide strap around their neck for OOA scenarios, no exceptions.