Advice for Training and Gear

[JesterDiver]

Thank you everyone for your input, it is appreciated. Ideally I want to go somewhere to train where they have the ability to rent different rigs. After some research it seems like some version of the Stealth, Razor or Hollis may be the brands I'm looking at. I see The Stealth has a classic, 2.0 and a tec version I think. So an op/instructor that can objectively give me all the pros and cons and make suggestions based on the specific diving I'll be doing is what I'm looking for. Of course I want the best instruction possible so that I can adapt and trouble shoot any rig.

To be clear, my tech aspirations would be "light" tech. In other words, something like two bottom gas tanks and one deco tank, I don't see myself expanding beyond that. And those kinds of dives would most likely be few and far between. The vast majority of my diving would be tropical open water diving. I want my training to be ocean/boat diving centric since I know that's will be what I'll be doing. I'm sure some freshwater training has it's benefits in terms of calm conditions, but I definitely want to work with an op that will take me out on a boat for open ocean diving. I know that SM and boat have some wrinkles that I want to experience.

So suggestions of instructors and ops that would fit the bill of options of gear to try, intensive training in the type of diving I'll be doing is what I'm looking for.

Thank you all

 

[tbone1004]

I do not know of any place in warm water that has multiple rigs available to do what you do outside of Cave Adventurers. Most of the ones in Mexico will be firmly in the Razor or xDeep camp and it is highly unlikely you'll see any other rigs there. Remember the two main schools of sidemount, and because of that, the Florida rigs are almost unheard of in Mexico. On the other hand, most of the big sidemount divers in Florida have a dedicated Mexico/Bahamas rig *i.e. al80* instead of steel tank rig, so you are much more likely to see a diverse rig selection in Florida.

there are certainly nuances to diving sidemount on a boat, which is why I dive doubles when on a boat, but you are better off getting the sidemount bit figured out where you don't have any time restrictions then do the boat adjustment later.

also, for what you're doing now, have you considered just monkey diving with a single al80?

 

[gearhound]

I only bring up the redundant buoyancy because it may be a requirement or standard in your tec course.

The Razor was actually designed without baffles specifically. It was done this way to put the lift further down towards the waist. For many people, the center of gravity shifts down towards the waist compared to backmount.

I dive a Stealth nowadays, both the Classic and the Tec. It's outstanding! I made that choice after owning, diving and selling various other rigs. Does everyone need to buy one? My answer is "no". It's more about the skill of the diver than the gear. I made the recommendation of the Razor based on the needs that JesterDiver provided in his op.

Regarding training in Florida - and this is strictly my opinion formed from what you see posted in the forums. It may not be the attitude of the actual instructors. The prevailing attitude seems to be that unless you're diving over filled steel tanks, then you're not a real cave diver. They seem to look down their nose at those that dive al80's. So if that is the case, why train somewhere where you will be thought of as a second class citizen? Where al80's are an afterthought?

JesterDiver, I suggest contacting Natalie Gibb at Under the Jungle. They spend the majority of their days diving in the tanks that you want to dive in. She dives in the ocean in sidemount. There is an ocean within minutes of her shop. Her shop is situated at a crystal clear cenote. I'm pretty sure she can tailor a course to your specific needs. It will be a tough and thorough course. If your spouse isn't a diver, there's plenty of stuff for him/her to do while your training.

FYI tbone, most of the older instructors in Mexico started out in either the Dive Rite or the Armadillo. You'll also find Hollis and UTD down there.

 

[tbone1004]

@gearhound the razor was designed without baffles because steve prioritized redundant buoyancy over streamlining because when diving with AL80's, you don't have a lot of air in there. It is not feasible to put a redundant bladder in a wing that is properly baffled because the baffles need to be attached to the inner and outer shell to function properly. It can be done, but they wouldn't pay for it, same reason none of the hardware has the nice rubber grommets, no reason other than they wouldn't pay for it.

regarding redundant buoyancy, it should be required in an andp course which you are fully aware, but it is much better to deal with hanging from a lift bag during deco than it is to sacrifice on the rig in the first place.

the opinion regarding the al80 diving is not true and there are two sides of that story. Steel bottles aren't used in MX or the Bahamas because they are essentially not available. Mexico especially has the added advantage of most of the caves being extremely shallow in comparison so large amounts of gas aren't required due to the depths. With some exceptions, the majority of those caves have a max depth of 30-50ft, with most at 40. Compare that to Florida where quite a few of them average double that pressure so we are consuming gas twice as fast. My last cave dive was a pair of 121's pumped all the way, with a pair of al80 stages pumped to 3300, and we scootered to just over a mile back. I can do that dive with 4 bottles comfortably. To do that dive in al80's would either require carrying 6 bottles into the cave which is idiotic, or do a setup dive, which is annoying and impractical when we have access to big tanks. In Mexico, that same penetration would have been done on 3 al80's so there is no reason to have the big tanks down there because of the depths, but there is plenty of reason to have them in Florida.

I do know they started in the Nomad or Dillo because it was the only thing available at the time, but times have changed and they now have rigs much better suited for the tanks that they are diving so there is no point in having those types of rigs if you are doing predominantly al80 diving

 

[CptTightPants21]

While I enjoy the SM back and forth, getting back to the OP.

If all of your diving is tropical resort diving and your primary focus is having a redundant tank rather than getting into more advanced diving, you might be better off slinging the AL80 that was intended for your 2nd dive (or paying a little extra and renting a al40). Simply bring an AL80 stage kit, set it up on your first day of diving and you are good to go. Breathe each tank down to ½ +200.

Slinging the 80 isn’t difficult, but would require a little practice to get comfortable if you haven’t slung anything before. Would save you from having to buy a new rig, SM training, etc

 

[gearhound]

tbone, we had a discussion with Steve when he first designed the Razor. He went over his philosophy of why it was designed the way it was. He also showed some designs that he rejected, one having baffles, and why he rejected it. You can interpret it however you want, but my info is from the horse's mouth. In any event, it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

And you're making my point as to why to train in Mexico. He wants to dive tropical waters in al80s. That's what they do there. That's their specialty. Saying that, the skills do translate, but the OP has already stated that all he's interested in is diving in tropical waters with al80s.

I fear we're about to go into circles in a pissing match on the Florida/Mexico "thing", rather than concentrating on what the OP asked. I've had my say and will leave it at that.

CptTightPants, we are addressing the OP...he posted in the sidemount forum

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

When diving the the Mexico caves I use AL80's. Have never been to Florida for cave diving. Would like to someday. But for me its hard to understand why you would overfill your tanks way beyond the rating. Seems to me you should take that risk away and dive steel 130's at 3442. To the Florida Cave Divers... What do you use for side mount tanks? Size? Fill? Just asking. Not criticizing. Thanks.

 

[CptTightPants21]

When diving the the Mexico caves I use AL80's. Have never been to Florida for cave diving. Would like to someday. But for me its hard to understand why you would overfill your tanks way beyond the rating. Seems to me you should take that risk away and dive steel 130's at 3442. To the Florida Cave Divers... What do you use for side mount tanks? Size? Fill? Just asking. Not criticizing. Thanks.

108s are probably the most popular along with a smattering of LP121s, a bunch of LP95, and a few LP85s.

Fill pressures are 3600-4000. Mostly around the 3500-3600 range, but occasionally can get around 3900.

Steel tanks are not aluminum; no one is consistently overfilling aluminum.

A tank is subjected to 5/3 of working pressure whenever it is hydro'd. Steel tanks can handle the extra pressure--I think faber was even claiming their tanks could handle 10,000 psi before rupturing. Your rated "Fill" is simple physics and nothing more than a combination of internal volume and pressure. As for the why not 130s, they are around, but you are also answering your own question. Similar size, similar weight, similar pressure, why should I giving up 20-40 cuft?

People also seem to forget that large volume high pressure tanks are a relatively recent invention and cave diving was going on decades before.

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

Perhaps I am missing something here... You suggested that Florida Cave divers use mostly 108s - Lp121s - LP95s - Lp85s. So why not 130 steels? Biggest volume tank. Rated to 3442. ? Sidemount gear doesn't support them well enough?

 

[CptTightPants21]

108s filled at 3600

3600/2640 x 108 = 147 cuft

95s at 3600 are 130, but are just as heavy and stubby/don't work for some people. If you are going to be carrying that much weight, might as well make them 108s.

Like I said, 130s definitely around, but you'll see more of the LP tanks.