Advanced penetration of the Spiegel Grove Wreck

[Rearviewmirror]

Reading through this thread has definitely been an interesting and informative experience. I wanted to ask a few questions (more driven out of learning) as I reflect back on my own Spiegel Grove dives earlier this year.

1. What are people's thoughts on the experience level a diver should have before a guided penetration of the Spiegel Grove?
2. For a guided dive on the SG with a single AL80 (w/ Nitrox) what dive plans do you think are appropriate?
3. Other than gas plan (i.e. diving to thirds), light, redundant light, and bug out plan, is there anything else that should be considered beyond appropriate finning techniques and buoyancy control?
4. Generally what are your thoughts on less experienced divers diving the SG with a guide?

I ask all of this because I dove SG earlier this year, with a guide, DM candidate, and instabuddy (this was with a very well run dive shop and experienced instructor who intimately knew the wreck). I honestly had no idea the dive was going to include penetration until we were discussing the dive plan, and the instructor also characterized the dives as swim throughs, even though there were definitely some portions with no visible light (first dive was the machine room, second was the bakery).

At the time I was an OW diver with sub-20 dives and non EANx certified (I dove on air). The instructor was really phenomenal and clearly knew the wreck extremely well. He was diving with an attached pony and had a clear route plan and displayed good situational awareness throughout, checking on our gas consumption and NDL regularly. That said, I was definitely out of my comfort zone as soon as it became a true penetration dive. It also felt like a dive where his familiarity with the wreck led him to project similar certainty onto the other divers. It also seemed "the norm" in terms of dive plans, and I regret not questioning it more pre-dive.

That said, my instabuddy was a total space cadet, and was diving pretty much upright like a seahorse, alternating between kicking me in the face and playing with his selfie stick. Diving with him stressed me out, even though I was deliberately trying to stay a bit closer to the ceiling and using a modified frog kick behind him.

Having now done a lot of reading (Simon Pridmore's books in particular were excellent), I can't help thinking I was a pretty lucky diver to successfully complete those dives at my experience level. While the instructor was great and the plan was pretty solid (we dove instructor, insta-buddy, me, then DM candidate last) and there were definitely decent risk mitigation plans in place, I can't help thinking we could have ended up in really bad shape if someone had silted out one of the corridors, given my lack of knowledge of the wreck and with no line. In addition, I don't know the experience level of the DM (even though he dove well) - so I don't know if that counts for anything beyond mental safety blanket.
I'll be back in Key Largo later in the year (same dive shop, different instructor) and hope to dive the SG again as part of my AOW (I have another dive trip to Curacao before then), but would value advice on how to dive with appropriate conservativism - I'm absolutely fine if that means only planning light swim throughs or external to the wreck.

Thanks for any reflections - I'm here to learn and improve.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

Reading through this thread has definitely been an interesting and informative experience. I wanted to ask a few questions (more driven out of learning) as I reflect back on my own Spiegel Grove dives earlier this year.

1. What are people's thoughts on the experience level a diver should have before a guided penetration of the Spiegel Grove?
2. For a guided dive on the SG with a single AL80 (w/ Nitrox) what dive plans do you think are appropriate?
3. Other than gas plan (i.e. diving to thirds), light, redundant light, and bug out plan, is there anything else that should be considered beyond appropriate finning techniques and buoyancy control?
4. Generally what are your thoughts on less experienced divers diving the SG with a guide?

I ask all of this because I dove SG earlier this year, with a guide, DM candidate, and instabuddy (this was with a very well run dive shop and experienced instructor who intimately knew the wreck). I honestly had no idea the dive was going to include penetration until we were discussing the dive plan, and the instructor also characterized the dives as swim throughs, even though there were definitely some portions with no visible light (first dive was the machine room, second was the bakery).

At the time I was an OW diver with sub-20 dives and non EANx certified (I dove on air). The instructor was really phenomenal and clearly knew the wreck extremely well. He was diving with an attached pony and had a clear route plan and displayed good situational awareness throughout, checking on our gas consumption and NDL regularly. That said, I was definitely out of my comfort zone as soon as it became a true penetration dive. It also felt like a dive where his familiarity with the wreck led him to project similar certainty onto the other divers. It also seemed "the norm" in terms of dive plans, and I regret not questioning it more pre-dive.

That said, my instabuddy was a total space cadet, and was diving pretty much upright like a seahorse, alternating between kicking me in the face and playing with his selfie stick. Diving with him stressed me out, even though I was deliberately trying to stay a bit closer to the ceiling and using a modified frog kick behind him.

Having now done a lot of reading (Simon Pridmore's books in particular were excellent), I can't help thinking I was a pretty lucky diver to successfully complete those dives at my experience level. While the instructor was great and the plan was pretty solid (we dove instructor, insta-buddy, me, then DM candidate last) and there were definitely decent risk mitigation plans in place, I can't help thinking we could have ended up in really bad shape if someone had silted out one of the corridors, given my lack of knowledge of the wreck and with no line. In addition, I don't know the experience level of the DM (even though he dove well) - so I don't know if that counts for anything beyond mental safety blanket.
I'll be back in Key Largo later in the year (same dive shop, different instructor) and hope to dive the SG again as part of my AOW (I have another dive trip to Curacao before then), but would value advice on how to dive with appropriate conservativism - I'm absolutely fine if that means only planning light swim throughs or external to the wreck.

Thanks for any reflections - I'm here to learn and improve.

I wouldn’t do much of a penetration dive with a single 80. I have quite a few deco dive on the SG, but they were all with doubles and a deco bottle. A single 80 just isn’t enough gas.

 

[rsingler]

The SG is a wreck with three personalities, and that's not counting when you have surface current to deal with on top of it.
The upper decks have so many openings that "approved" swim-thru's (within 130 linear feet of the surface) are plentiful.
On the other end are the Advanced Wreck penetrations requiring line and multiple redundancies (not to mention deco experience).
And in the middle are the dives everyone argues about. By the PADI rules, these penetrations are beyond AOW and Wreck certs. But when conducted by responsible shops like Horizon Divers, they are very safe. With a small group (4 plus guide or less) on 80's and two pony bottles (40CF) with an experienced guide, I think the upper deck penetrations are completely safe for an OW diver, albeit "beyond their certification." In this sense, the divers are expanding their experience level with a more experienced guide, completely consistent with the guidelines.
Lights are close to unneeded, because while a visible exit might briefly disappear, the glow of that hole in the hull IS still present, and the deck areas in question are dim, but not dark. Lights are nice to bring out colors, but not necessary for nav.
A knucklehead kicking up silt is not very worrisome, because these levels are so thoroughly washed by current and hundreds of divers lifting particulates off the bottom that it never goes to zero vis, unlike the 100 ft decks and lower.
"Finding Snoopy" is a classic example. Yeah, it's ~140' linear feet from the surface, and turns a corner from the last visible exit. But there are only two ways out, and they all lead one turn from a visible exit (although you could wander off if you didn't stay with your group - again to an exit further away). With a guide, dozens of OW divers "get the t-shirt" every year.

Now if you arrive on site and there's a stiff 0-30' current that has you breathing hard just to pull to the anchor ball and down the line to where it slacks off, then you might want to go to an easier backup plan, rather than do that penetration already minus more gas than you expected.

Yeah, the Spiegel Grove has a reputation, but more from folks that have dived it once and gotten spooked than from anyone with a few passes through those decks.

But if you're not just doing a deck noodle at the 80' level, definitely consider a guide. Split three ways plus tip, it's cheap insurance and a better experience to boot.

 

[scubadada]

Hi @Rearviewmirror

You have a very low dive number. I hope that you are at least nitrox certified by now. Most operators would not have allowed you to dive the Spiegel without a guide until you had AOW or experience at depth. I do not know your dives of the machine room or the bakery. All, or nearly all of the dives on the main deck and above are swim throughs. I would be surprised if your guide took you below the main deck, some of those dives are also swim throughs.

If you need a guide, you have to tolerate the others in your group, no choice. An AL80 with 32% is perfectly capable of giving you a good no stop dive, depending on your RMV. What were the dive times of your dives, NDL or gas limited? Of the 24 dives I have on the Spiegel, many are around 45 min or a little more.

@rsingler beat me to it. Increase your experience, get nitrox and AOW certified, increase your experience on the Spiegel Grove, with or without a guide. For a change of pace and to increase your experience, dive the Duane.

 

[rsingler]

Didn't notice the dive count.
For all my thoughts in favor, I'm afraid I wouldn't have taken you on that dive with 20.
Though from your writeup, you're a better diver than your total might suggest. Glad you had a good learning experience.
Learn "Rock Bottom Pressure." It's critical on the SG, with no place to go to above 70'.

Why Surface with 500 PSI?

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Anything other than a "swim thru" requires advanced wreck diver training and certification. This is done with the same gear as full cave.

A "swim thru" is when you look in a hatchway or other opening and clearly see the way out.

Having a DM or simple OW instructor guide you thru this ship is not smart.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Why Surface with 500 PSI?

Also->Cave Dive Florida - Rule of Thirds

 

[Rearviewmirror]

Thanks everybody (particularly @rsingler for the detailed info) - this has been very helpful so far. A few thoughts/reactions/follow up questions:

• One point to clarify as I had received a question via DM - both of these dives were led by a guide/instructor, and there was a DM candidate along for the ride
• I am now nitrox certified, and will be taking my AOW at the end of the summer (wanted to get some more dive experience first) - planning to include nav, deep, wreck, night, and buoyancy.
• First dive was NDL limited (5min NDL was our established floor and flirted with that for all of ~1 minute before I could get my guide's attention that I was at that number)
• First dive to the machine room was a brisk 21mins (definitely sucking gas harder than I needed to, but then again it was my first ever penetration dive!), second dive was 26mins and definitely more gas limited. I also realized after both dives that I had forgotten to shift the venturi lever on my reg forward (newbie mistake) so guessing my WOB was probably higher than it needed to be at depth.
• Dive 1 ~1,000psi left when I reached the safety stop, 890psi when back on the boat
• Dive 2 ~ 720psi left when I reached the safety stop, 480psi when back on the boat as one of our party had to complete about 3mins longer SS than the rest of us (not sure if he went deeper or just his computer asked for it/he had done some other diving that meant he was coming in with more tissue loading) - hence surfacing with just under 500psi.
• Honestly one of my goals is to go back and re-dive it with a clearer understanding of what it entails, and focused more on the quality of my diving than thinking "OMG I'm doing a penetration dive that I don't know if I'm ready for". I really enjoy the wreck diving I had done in the past (all external) and so want to continue to grow my skillset there. I hope some day to progress to taking a cavern course (more for skill development than because I plan to become a cavern/cave diver regularly).
• I do hope to get to dive the Duane at some point as well, but I'm somewhat at the mercy of where boats choose to go and I get the impression the SG is the main attraction
• Adding dive profiles below (my main takeaways are suck less gas and be a lot more careful of ascent/descent rate speed)
  
  
• Any other thoughts or feedback? As I said initially, I really want to improve as a diver (both the mental and physical side) and to me that includes risk assessment, progressing at an appropriate pace for my skill, and choosing experiences that are opportunities to learn without taking on undue risk.
• Any recommendations for good quality dive cards of the Spiegel Grove? All the ones I could find online seem to be very general images and not super detailed for me to be able to better understand the layout/dive plan.

Dive 1 - Machine room dive

Dive 2 - Bakery dive

 

[Edward3c]

Thanks everybody (particularly @rsingler for the detailed info) - this has been very helpful so far. A few thoughts/reactions/follow up questions:

• One point to clarify as I had received a question via DM - both of these dives were led by a guide/instructor, and there was a DM candidate along for the ride
• I am now nitrox certified, and will be taking my AOW at the end of the summer (wanted to get some more dive experience first) - planning to include nav, deep, wreck, night, and buoyancy.
• First dive was NDL limited (5min NDL was our established floor and flirted with that for all of ~1 minute before I could get my guide's attention that I was at that number)
• First dive to the machine room was a brisk 21mins (definitely sucking gas harder than I needed to, but then again it was my first ever penetration dive!), second dive was 26mins and definitely more gas limited. I also realized after both dives that I had forgotten to shift the venturi lever on my reg forward (newbie mistake) so guessing my WOB was probably higher than it needed to be at depth.
• Dive 1 ~1,000psi left when I reached the safety stop, 890psi when back on the boat
• Dive 2 ~ 720psi left when I reached the safety stop, 480psi when back on the boat as one of our party had to complete about 3mins longer SS than the rest of us (not sure if he went deeper or just his computer asked for it/he had done some other diving that meant he was coming in with more tissue loading) - hence surfacing with just under 500psi.
• Honestly one of my goals is to go back and re-dive it with a clearer understanding of what it entails, and focused more on the quality of my diving than thinking "OMG I'm doing a penetration dive that I don't know if I'm ready for". I really enjoy the wreck diving I had done in the past (all external) and so want to continue to grow my skillset there. I hope some day to progress to taking a cavern course (more for skill development than because I plan to become a cavern/cave diver regularly).
• I do hope to get to dive the Duane at some point as well, but I'm somewhat at the mercy of where boats choose to go and I get the impression the SG is the main attraction
• Adding dive profiles below (my main takeaways are suck less gas and be a lot more careful of ascent/descent rate speed)
  
  
• Any other thoughts or feedback? As I said initially, I really want to improve as a diver (both the mental and physical side) and to me that includes risk assessment, progressing at an appropriate pace for my skill, and choosing experiences that are opportunities to learn without taking on undue risk.
• Any recommendations for good quality dive cards of the Spiegel Grove? All the ones I could find online seem to be very general images and not super detailed for me to be able to better understand the layout/dive plan.

Dive 1 - Machine room dive
View attachment 728011
Dive 2 - Bakery dive
View attachment 728012

My questions to you:

• Did you do basic gas requirements for either dive?
• Dive 2: If a diver has to stay at a stop, then it’s a mandatory deco stop not a safety stop.
• What was the dive ops guidance on gas, arrive:
  • at SS with x pressure?
  • at surface with x pressure?
  • be back on the boat with x pressure?

 

[Rearviewmirror]

My questions to you:

• Did you do basic gas requirements for either dive?
• Dive 2: If a diver has to stay at a stop, then it’s a mandatory deco stop not a safety stop.
• What was the dive ops guidance on gas, arrive:
  • at SS with x pressure?
  • at surface with x pressure?
  • be back on the boat with x pressure?

Answers below:

• Yes - the primary guidance given was rule of thirds for the dive (i.e. turn the dive and begin our ascent at 2/3 of gas remaining, indicate when at 50% gas remaining, and keep NDL above 5mins at all times on the dives.
• I wondered about that at the time, but I think potentially his computer was set to a 5min safety stop, whereas I believe my computer adapts based on dive profile (Shearwater Teric) so it's possible my computer only asked for a 3min SS vs his 5min stop. I spent 5mins at that stop, so I'm guessing it was still a safety stop. I think he was diving a Suunto Zoop.
• Gas guidance
  • We did not set a target gas pressure for arrival at the SG - worth saying it was a calm day w/ close to zero current
  • We were not told to be at the surface with a specific pressure
  • 500psi was given as the min pressure for back on the boat
  • So with that said - it sounds like we didn't adequately discuss gas consumption/target pressures.