Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[Arkman]

I identified 10 people who were generally hostile. Here are their post counts in this thread:

Forbin's Descent: 95 posts (nearly 20% of the total posts)
Wetbe4igetinthewater: 51 posts (10% of the total posts)
Erik Sedlesky: 40 posts (8% of total posts)
Arkman: 14 posts
Tarponchik: 9 posts (obsessed with 60 feet being a cutoff depth)
The remaining 6 people: 12 posts

Interesting. I'd like to know how you think I was being "hostile". I am the OP and I've really only discussed what happened to me in my AOW. I left the instructor, shop, and AGENCY out of it until it became obvious that it was a PADI deal. Do I have a reason to be "hostile", yeah probably. They took my money and did a sh** job with a class. I have been pretty clear that I wasn't agency bashing. I even complimented my previous PADI training because I had a great instructor. If you really read my posts you'd notice that I also defend PADI as I do think there are a lot of good shops and instructors out there.

I started this thread to share my story. Not to start a fight. I even said that in an early post. Now I get it, it's the internet. People will fight about anything. I also get that for many people this isn't just a fun hobby, it is their lifes work and passion, so it is understandable how tempers can flair.

Are there some people being "hostile" here. Yeah probably. Am I one of them? I sure don't feel like it.

 

[boulderjohn]

Interesting. I'd like to know how you think I was being "hostile". I am the OP and I've really only discussed what happened to me in my AOW. I left the instructor, shop, and AGENCY out of it until it became obvious that it was a PADI deal. Do I have a reason to be "hostile", yeah probably. They took my money and did a sh** job with a class. I have been pretty clear that I wasn't agency bashing. I even complimented my previous PADI training because I had a great instructor. If you really read my posts you'd notice that I also defend PADI as I do think there are a lot of good shops and instructors out there.

I started this thread to share my story. Not to start a fight. I even said that in an early post. Now I get it, it's the internet. People will fight about anything. I also get that for many people this isn't just a fun hobby, it is their lifes work and passion, so it is understandable how tempers can flair.

Are there some people being "hostile" here. Yeah probably. Am I one of them? I sure don't feel like it.

I apologize for misinterpreting. I was reading too quickly and too quick to categorize because I feared being accused of skipping over negative comments. So we should strike your comments from my list.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

Interesting. I'd like to know how you think I was being "hostile". I am the OP and I've really only discussed what happened to me in my AOW. I left the instructor, shop, and AGENCY out of it until it became obvious that it was a PADI deal. Do I have a reason to be "hostile", yeah probably. They took my money and did a sh** job with a class. I have been pretty clear that I wasn't agency bashing. I even complimented my previous PADI training because I had a great instructor. If you really read my posts you'd notice that I also defend PADI as I do think there are a lot of good shops and instructors out there.

I started this thread to share my story. Not to start a fight. I even said that in an early post. Now I get it, it's the internet. People will fight about anything. I also get that for many people this isn't just a fun hobby, it is their lifes work and passion, so it is understandable how tempers can flair.

Are there some people being "hostile" here. Yeah probably. Am I one of them? I sure don't feel like it.

Ha. I didn’t catch that I was being called hostile either.

 

[Cthippo]

so if agencies can't figure out how to address these items, how does anyone expect individual divers to do so?

The agencies are specifically training agencies. They set standards for classes and really that's it. They have no say on what anyone does outside a training environment. Things like "people should dive more often so as to stay profiecient" and "people should stay in shape so as to be safer in the water" are things an agency can teach but not really enforce. Likewise DAN is somewhere between a safety agency and an insurance company. They can make recommendations and deny policies, but they too are limited. In the end, only individual divers can address some of the DAN recommendations in how they choose to dive.

Only I can choose how often I dive or if I get refresher training when I have been out of the Water a while. Only I can choose not to dive if I am out of shape or not feeling well. Agencies can educate me on the relative risks, and dive operators can choose to refuse to let me dove with them, but at the end of the day Only I choose whether to dive or not.

Likewise,diving within limits. A training agency can recommend limits and ensure that I understand those recomme dating through written testing, but there is nothing to stop me from going straight from OW certification to trying to dive to 300 feet on air. The scope of a training agency ends with "we told him that was a bad idea". On a personal account, they told me it was a bad idea to go straight from OW to diving solo, but that is exactly what I did. My instructor did her job by informing me of the risks involved, but in the end it was my choice to exceed recommended practices.

Some of the things in the DAN list are well within the scope of the training agencies to address, but we also have to recognize that some are not and that the list was not meant to be specifically changes they want to see to training.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

Well here is some evidence of the widespread incompetence in instruction bwahahahaha

And no defense of this? Of course not because it’s undefendable. I hate to call this person out publicly and I didn’t on that post but jeez you are going to teach and you don’t even know the equipment? You hold the title “Master” and don’t even know the equipment?

 

[boulderjohn]

And no defense of this? Of course not because it’s undefendable. I hate to call this person out publicly and I didn’t on that post but jeez you are going to teach and you don’t even know the equipment? You hold the title “Master” and don’t even know the equipment?

Where do you get that she does not know equipment? She wants specific recommendations for models of BCDs. She can't possibly know them all, and she wants one that people feel are particularly good for instructing.

 

[boulderjohn]

Ha. I didn’t catch that I was being called hostile either.

Weren't you? It sure seemed that you were in that camp, small as it was.

 

[Outbound]

Well here is some evidence of the widespread incompetence in instruction bwahahahaha

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't understand how this is evidence of widespread incompetence in instruction. It's not really evidence of anything, other than this person is starting an IDC and wants some feedback on good BCDs to use while teaching. No different than the countless posts on SB asking for advice on equipment for various circumstances.

I know you have an axe to grind, and to some extent it's warranted given your experience. But come on now.

 

[tursiops]

Ahhh, Thank You!
I wonder why these have not been mentioned (or even revised) since 2016? Nothing like it in 2017, 2018, 2019, or 2020 (the latest).

I'm guessing Buzzacott -- the editor in 2016 -- wrote that introduction mentioning the top ten list without a lot of review, and once it appeared he was told not to do that again. He was also the editor in 2017, and coeditor in 2018, and not an editor in 2019 or 2020.
It's an OK list, but without more backing from DAN post-publication I suspect it is HIS list, not DAN's.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't understand how this is evidence of widespread incompetence in instruction.

Just submitted as a piece of evidence not the only piece. I looked on here for help with some drysuit stuff but I’m not an instructor nor would I tried to instruct it until I became proficient at it. I would never hire an instructor looking for this type of advice.