Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[boulderjohn]

So in the end who is the retail model successful for?

Let's see.

The YMCA went out of the diving business. NAUI now does retail shop instruction, too, and it is no longer fully non-profit.

In another section of that history (which, BTW, taught me a ton about scuba history), they talk about a problem they had from the very start with scuba instructors certifying divers who had not actually completed the program successfully. The instructors wanted to be able to hand the students their official certification cards at the end of the class, and so when students enrolled in the class, they sent the class list to NAUI, and NAUI sent them the certification cards. They knew that in many cases, students got their cards without completing the class, and they knew that in more than a few cases, students got their cards without even actually attending a single session. They never figured out how to deal with it.

So the idea that every scuba student 50-60 years ago got outstanding instruction from god-like teachers is a myth. My niece is NAUI certified (about 20 years ago). She had one 2-hour session in the pool and one OW dive to a maximum depth of 10 feet. She has no plans to do any diving with that background.

I was a career educator, a teacher and an administrator. I will tell you right now that every school in America has teachers who are teaching close to nothing in their classes and getting away with it, despite a very expensive evaluation system in place to prevent that. In every profession there are people doing a great job, and there are people who are getting by doing as little as they can. Scuba is not exempt from this. The model for attracting students to the sport has nothing to do with it.

 

[Outbound]

…aaand I just ran into a young gal last Saturday at one of my local dive sites shore diving with her dad. Turns out she got certified through Humboldt State University (NAUI). One if the finest most thorough programs around. BTW, Sonoma State has the same program through NAUI, very thorough course. I used to help the instructor at the latter. It’s a full semester long. They go through everything. Most of the students are getting degrees in marine biology/ marine science.
I would not say non profit models do not work, maybe not to make money but there’s more it than that, what about turning out good divers?
If all it’s about is expanding the quantity of divers so they can fill charter boats, go to resorts, and buy gear, basically feed the machine then yeah PADI is king. But are they turning out the quality if divers university NAUI does now or YMCA used to? I don’t think so.
And, is the instructor at those cert mills getting a fair portion of that money? I heard it’s starting to cost instructors money to teach.
So in the end who is the retail model successful for?

You can turn out piss-poor students from a non-profit approach as well. And you can turn out solid divers using a for-profit model.

I personally know four NAUI dive pros (two instructors and two DMs) and they absolutely suck. Their lack of knowledge about dive physics and physiology is astounding, and none of them can demonstrate any of the skills in a clear way. I would never argue, however, that the entire NAUI approach is garbage or that all their divers are terrible. All I know is that the four that I know are, and I don't generalize beyond that.

People can complain all they want about PADI charging too much or certifying too many divers. That may be true to a certain extent. But if it wasn't for PADI, you could largely kiss sport diving goodbye as there just wouldn't be a market for gear and dive ops.

 

[OMyMyOHellYes]

Phys
physics don’t change

But I thought that physics was relative.

 

[boulderjohn]

Let's see.

The YMCA went out of the diving business. NAUI now does retail shop instruction, too, and it is no longer fully non-profit.

In another section of that history (which, BTW, taught me a ton about scuba history), they talk about a problem they had from the very start with scuba instructors certifying divers who had not actually completed the program successfully. The instructors wanted to be able to hand the students their official certification cards at the end of the class, and so when students enrolled in the class, they sent the class list to NAUI, and NAUI sent them the certification cards. They knew that in many cases, students got their cards without completing the class, and they knew that in more than a few cases, students got their cards without even actually attending a single session. They never figured out how to deal with it.

So the idea that every scuba student 50-60 years ago got outstanding instruction from god-like teachers is a myth. My niece is NAUI certified (about 20 years ago). She had one 2-hour session in the pool and one OW dive to a maximum depth of 10 feet. She has no plans to do any diving with that background.

I was a career educator, a teacher and an administrator. I will tell you right now that every school in America has teachers who are teaching close to nothing in their classes and getting away with it, despite a very expensive evaluation system in place to prevent that. In every profession there are people doing a great job, and there are people who are getting by doing as little as they can. Scuba is not exempt from this. The model for attracting students to the sport has nothing to do with it.

I just wanted to add something to this.

More than a half century ago, I was waiting for the last days of summer before heading back to college. My father was very big in the local volunteer fire department, and I was a member of that department. My father suggested I kill an evening going to an introductory session for a class in arson investigation. I went, signing in with all the others attending the session. We didn't really learn much that night--it was just an introduction to what was going to be taught later in the course. Two days later I went off to college and never gave it another thought.

About eight months later my certificate for the course arrived in the mail. I am now an officially certified arson investigator. You can call on me to investigate a suspicious fire, have me file a report, and call on me to testify in a trial.

This sort of thing happens everywhere.

 

[Belzelbub]

The History of NAUI, written in part by AL Tillman, NAUI instructor #1, goes into the questions in this latest section of the thread. It says that in the early days, there was a serious question of how to attract students. It showed three different approaches by the different agencies.

1. The YMCA decided to focus on clubs to gather new students and provide instruction.
2. NAUI, trying to survive on a non-profit model, decided to focus on university students. The thinking was that the students had to spend tuition money on physical education classes no matter what, so making one of the class options scuba was essentially giving the class to students for free.
3. When NAUI's approach was not working, they had to pull back from national efforts and focus on California. When they did, they canceled a Chicago area instructor training program. The Chicago NAUI branch angrily formed a new agency, PADI. That new agency decided to follow the lead of NASDS and offer instruction through the sporting goods stores that were selling the gear.

That history plainly says that in retrospect, plans 1 and 2 were mistakes, and they clearly failed. Plan 3 was the successful model.

Interesting. I'd read that before, but thanks for bringing it back. Interestingly, I took one of those University courses and at the completion was provided a YMCA card. We had the option of paying a little extra to get additional cards from either NAUI or CMAS, or both. This was provided as an option for divers that may want a card that may have been more recognizable. This was after option 3 was already instituted, and I had a cert from PADI already, so I just stuck with the default YMCA card.

In another section of that history (which, BTW, taught me a ton about scuba history), they talk about a problem they had from the very start with scuba instructors certifying divers who had not actually completed the program successfully. The instructors wanted to be able to hand the students their official certification cards at the end of the class, and so when students enrolled in the class, they sent the class list to NAUI, and NAUI sent them the certification cards. They knew that in many cases, students got their cards without completing the class, and they knew that in more than a few cases, students got their cards without even actually attending a single session. They never figured out how to deal with it.

I don't think you can completely eliminate it as there will always be some instructors who will take advantage, but today there really is no need to pre-make the cards as the student can walk out after successful completion with a hard card or e-card that is only available when the instructor signs off that the course has been successfully completed. At least that way the instructor has to do something to release the cert.

So the idea that every scuba student 50-60 years ago got outstanding instruction from god-like teachers is a myth. My niece is NAUI certified (about 20 years ago). She had one 2-hour session in the pool and one OW dive to a maximum depth of 10 feet. She has no plans to do any diving with that background.

Oh, absolutely. I was first certified in 1990. This course was along the lines of your nieces. The academics portion was fine. It was the in-water portions that were really lacking.

The original plan was to do the in-water portions over two weekends. I believe just one day each weekend, but I'm not positive. First weekend was essentially what would normally be done in a pool. Max depth was about 10'. Visibility was extremely poor. A couple feet at most. We did the usual drills, and I guess I did fine. I'd grown up around the water, so I didn't have any difficulty with any of the skills.

The next weekend was supposed to be a drift down Rainbow River. Visibility would be better, but depth was still pretty shallow. Most areas are in the 10-18' range. I had a scheduling conflict so was unable to make this weekend, so I rescheduled to go with the next class. When I went to the shop to pick up my gear, it was realized that they rescheduled me for the confined water portion again. Instructor said I didn't need to do that again, didn't reschedule me and gave me the temp cert card. That was it.

I definitely wasn't comfortable diving after that course. So, a few years later, I took another OW course at the University of Florida. That one, by contrast, was real thorough. 6 week course and I'm certain I had more in-water time during the first week (likely the first day) than in my entire original OW course.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

Clue: THEY DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE LOOKING FOR!!! THEY’RE NEW!!!

Exactly! We put our trust in because they are supposedly training us under the oversight of the organization that provides the certifications not realizing it's all BS.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

Nice of you to own up that you are a fraudster

Ha, me and thousands and thousands of other "certified" PADI divers. I will gladly send them their card back if they send me my $450 back. Of course, since these certifications are just made up things with no oversight, fraud is a stretch.

 

[tursiops]

Phys
physics don’t change

Equipment and how to use it safely DO change....and we know more about the physiology now. Maybe a bit more physics, too. Just because something was good enough for your grandfather doesn't mean it is the best thing today.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

PADI is probably one major reason why SCUBA diving is so popular today and for that reason manufacturers of SCUBA gear have had a larger target population than say back in the 50s and 60s when this hobby was just taking off.

If PADI and other non-club agencies had not started and the world was taught by clubs only, then gear would be even more expensive than it is today due to less people diving and the cost of manufacturing to an even smaller population of divers than it is today.

I disagree. It's gatekeeping. The costs of silly certifications are a financial barrier to folks wanting to enter the sport. Look at rock climbing and mountaineering. No silly certifications. I learned to climb by just climbing. In fact, they may even be hindering the sport by selling stupid. I mean Dive Against Debris Diver and Shark Conservation Diver. Come On!!!!

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I disagree. It's gatekeeping. The costs of silly certifications are a financial barrier to folks wanting to enter the sport. Look at rock climbing and mountaineering. No silly certifications. I learned to climb by just climbing. In fact, they may even be hindering the sport by selling stupid. I mean Dive Against Debris Diver and Shark Conservation Diver. Come On!!!!

okay smart guy, when the Zombie Apocalypse happens, you are going really regret not taking the PADI course that SPECIFICALLY prepares you for that future event.

Consider yourself warned!