Accident In Australia
- Thread starter jackbeckford
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*Floater*
Contributor
I can't believe anyone could suck a full tank dry in 20 min at 8 meters. jackbeckford, was that you max or average depth on the dive?
If the recollection is accurate, then either the tank must not have been full or there was a leak.
Also, for my discovery dive I was taught how to equalize, clear mask, signal underwater and basics of controlling buoyancy and checking my depth and gas left. Anyway you look at it the operator really messed up, however, it's probably not worth the trouble to pursue legal action.
If the recollection is accurate, then either the tank must not have been full or there was a leak.
Also, for my discovery dive I was taught how to equalize, clear mask, signal underwater and basics of controlling buoyancy and checking my depth and gas left. Anyway you look at it the operator really messed up, however, it's probably not worth the trouble to pursue legal action.
miketsp:
Something else occurred to me when I read this. Any liability case would probably fall by default under Australian law. I wonder if a UK lawyer would know the finer points of liability rulings in Australia...? The first part of any legal action would probably consist of lawyers bantering back and forth for a couple of months about which set of laws will be applied and jackbeckford would have the distinct pleasure of paying for all that.... and that's before any real fighting even starts.
It's also a good idea to research if punitive damages are allowed in either one of those countries. There are a number of countries (like where I live) that don't have any laws for punitive damages. Also, since he doesn't seem to have been injured he's got a snowball's chance in hell of getting anything more out of it than a judge somewhere publicly stating the obvious.
How much money is hearing that worth to you, jackbeckford?
If you want to save some money and get the opinion of a diving pro instead of a legal pro, then I'll state the obvious for you for free.
That should never have happened to you, jackbeckford, and it's the DM's fault.
R..
Ok I can't let this slide. A young man of 22-23 needs to learn he is ultimately responsible for his own safety when entering life threatening recreational activity. He admits to having been “apprehensive” about the dive. Each of us must be able to access the risk and accept the outcome or (in this case) have the fortitude to say “if I don’t know how to monitor my own air I am not getting in”.
"That should never have happened to you, jackbeckford, and it's the DM's fault" IMHO WRONG, WRONG!
In the end its jackbeckfords fault.
"That should never have happened to you, jackbeckford, and it's the DM's fault" IMHO WRONG, WRONG!
In the end its jackbeckfords fault.
I chair a litigation taskforce for a non profit corporation that is advised by some very skilled attorneys. I can imagine one of them, an expert in insurance litigation, reading this post and saying, "This doesn't sound very sexy". Indeed it does not. I think the 5000 people who've gotten sick on Carnival Cruises from the Norwalk virus have a cause of action at least as equally compelling, and they can file a class action. Bad experience on a cruise - two days in your cabin. Hey it happens.
Unless you have someone on contingency or otherwise have someone else (an insurer) paying for litigation, you will burn through $5,000 before a suit is actually filed. That might get you a case analysis and a couple of letters written to potential defendants. Then it starts getting expensive.
Here is what I recommend: Take the $5000 you would burn through immediatly. Put $1000 back in your bank account. Fly to a very nice place in the Caribean. Get scuba certification from a patient, reputable dive op. Do ten post-certification dives with that operation with a DM with you to provide extra training and confidence. Fly back and buy a complete set of gear with the money still in your pocket. Then finally laugh about the experience.
Unless you have someone on contingency or otherwise have someone else (an insurer) paying for litigation, you will burn through $5,000 before a suit is actually filed. That might get you a case analysis and a couple of letters written to potential defendants. Then it starts getting expensive.
Here is what I recommend: Take the $5000 you would burn through immediatly. Put $1000 back in your bank account. Fly to a very nice place in the Caribean. Get scuba certification from a patient, reputable dive op. Do ten post-certification dives with that operation with a DM with you to provide extra training and confidence. Fly back and buy a complete set of gear with the money still in your pocket. Then finally laugh about the experience.
mjh:
He's not a certified diver. It was his first time under water on scuba and regardless of his feeling of apprehension, the pro in the water has a duty of care to see to it that he doesn't run out of air. There is *no* expectation of someone engaged in an introductory dive that they are fully self-sufficient divers. There can't be.
If there is any question of responsibility on the part of jackbeckford here then it is in his own responsibility to say yes or no to partaking in the dive with what would appear to be an overwhelming feeling of apprehension.
The way I see it, once they're in the water, making sure nothing bad happens is the DM's can of worms.
R..
Someone posted earlier posted that during their(?) DSD they were giving some basic instruction (hand signals, mask clearing, pressure gauge, etc). That's exeactly how my DSD (PADI) went last August in Maui. I went through a brief on-shore lesson on hand signals, how to use the BC, purge the regulator, clear my mask and how to read the pressure guage. All this before getting in the water.
Now, maybe age as something to do with it (Iwas 54 at the time), but on both my dives (max depth 30ft), I did a second tank after the initial DSD, I made sure to check both the SPG and depth gauge often, probably too often, but I wanted to make sure that I had enough air
.. I had the advantage that it was just me and the insructor, but in addition to my own checks of the SPG, he checked often since he didn't want to have me suck the tank dry. His policy was that betwen 1500-1000lbs of air, then surface. My DSD was such a positive experience, that I came back, found a local instructor, and completed my certification last October.
In my opinion, chalk it up to a bad experience, and if you want, find a reputable instructor and get the proper instruction.
Now, maybe age as something to do with it (Iwas 54 at the time), but on both my dives (max depth 30ft), I did a second tank after the initial DSD, I made sure to check both the SPG and depth gauge often, probably too often, but I wanted to make sure that I had enough air
.. I had the advantage that it was just me and the insructor, but in addition to my own checks of the SPG, he checked often since he didn't want to have me suck the tank dry. His policy was that betwen 1500-1000lbs of air, then surface. My DSD was such a positive experience, that I came back, found a local instructor, and completed my certification last October.In my opinion, chalk it up to a bad experience, and if you want, find a reputable instructor and get the proper instruction.
My last post on this subject. Diver0001 you state:
the pro in the water has a duty of care to see to it that he doesn't run out of air
jackbeckford has the primary responsibility to insure he does not run out of air. If he has the wherewithal to travel, to use a computer and post on the internet, he should realize he is going underwater and if he runs out of air he dies. His apprehension told him this and he ignored it. That is his mistake and no one elses.
There is *no* expectation of someone engaged in an introductory dive that they are fully self-sufficient divers. There can't be.
Nobody said anything about being self-sufficient. The subject admits to taking part in a potentially lethal activity they were clueless about. If you want to say jackbeckford is so stupid he did not realize he should know how to monitor his own air that is your right. I believe he went against his better judgment and is now looking to place the blame elsewhere.
the pro in the water has a duty of care to see to it that he doesn't run out of air
jackbeckford has the primary responsibility to insure he does not run out of air. If he has the wherewithal to travel, to use a computer and post on the internet, he should realize he is going underwater and if he runs out of air he dies. His apprehension told him this and he ignored it. That is his mistake and no one elses.
There is *no* expectation of someone engaged in an introductory dive that they are fully self-sufficient divers. There can't be.
Nobody said anything about being self-sufficient. The subject admits to taking part in a potentially lethal activity they were clueless about. If you want to say jackbeckford is so stupid he did not realize he should know how to monitor his own air that is your right. I believe he went against his better judgment and is now looking to place the blame elsewhere.
Well MJ, I don't think we're going to find common ground on this.
I understand what you're trying to tell me about the person in question refusing to accept responsibility for his own mistake but his was not the only mistake.
The DM also made one by allowing his client to run out of air, something the DM is duty bound to avoid in this situation, even if the client doesn't bother and/or is too overwhelmed by the experience for one reason or another to remember to look.
Where we seem to disagree is where the *primary* responsibility lies. In my mind, it's with the DM because of his/her expertise and not the client because there is no assumption at all that the client is self sufficient on this point, whereas the DM should be.
It would be nice to have a lawyer say something about that. I'm not qualified to have a legal opinion so what I'm saying is all based on my sense of conscience.
R..
I understand what you're trying to tell me about the person in question refusing to accept responsibility for his own mistake but his was not the only mistake.
The DM also made one by allowing his client to run out of air, something the DM is duty bound to avoid in this situation, even if the client doesn't bother and/or is too overwhelmed by the experience for one reason or another to remember to look.
Where we seem to disagree is where the *primary* responsibility lies. In my mind, it's with the DM because of his/her expertise and not the client because there is no assumption at all that the client is self sufficient on this point, whereas the DM should be.
It would be nice to have a lawyer say something about that. I'm not qualified to have a legal opinion so what I'm saying is all based on my sense of conscience.
R..
H2Andy
Contributor
my .02 cents is that when a DM/instructor purports to take a non-diver below,
they are in complete control and have complete responsibility for the safety
of that non-diver
apparently, they were able to bring the diver to the surface unharmed in this
instance
what i don't like is their approach. a "resort" or intro course should consist of
an instruction session, then a pool session under controlled conditions, and then
an OW dive under the supervision and care of a professional.
in this case, it sounds like the class is not one i would recommend to anyone
they are in complete control and have complete responsibility for the safety
of that non-diver
apparently, they were able to bring the diver to the surface unharmed in this
instance
what i don't like is their approach. a "resort" or intro course should consist of
an instruction session, then a pool session under controlled conditions, and then
an OW dive under the supervision and care of a professional.
in this case, it sounds like the class is not one i would recommend to anyone
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