Accident because outboard engine caught fire: Part1, by lumba lumba diving centre

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I was wondering why LumbaLumba hadn't posted replies. From his "NA" status, I guess that he's gone. Banning decisions & reasons and often not shared for good reason, but are done rarely for very good causes only - so speculate that!
Thanks Don.
lol I wont be taking a CO tester, but if I had one I would take it and give you the results on my return :)

Waterproof can of baking soda? Im not sure what you mean, but after being around boats for over 20 years I can tell you Ive had some close calls, none of which involved fire I must say, but needless to say boating has its unexpected suprises.

The forum is mentioned previously in this thread: Yorkshire divers.
Ton was confronted and accused of falsifying the Belgian womans account of events and asked to present photos of the injury, to which he has.
If you care to read the thread you can make your own mind up.
Yeah, not many divers own CO testers yet. Too bad. From the descriptions of that compressor room, I think I can guarantee higher readings that allowed by Australia's admirable regulations, but allowed there, and it'd be interesting to know the results, not that'd you'd post them as you seem to be LumbaLumba's rep here - unless you are sincerely just that naive?
 
Two sets of photo but none shown the faces of the victims.
Even if the pictures are genuine, there is no denial that the Belgian girl was injuried by a pro because she had to jump out from a burning boat.

Two complaints within a very short period of time on one dive shop.
The injury of the Belgian girl is the consequences of BAD managment who chose to ignore all necessary safety precautions. To be taken care of by the dive shop was the least she deserted. There is nothing to be proud of.
 
Wow. Just...wow. That bloated, overwrought, rambling and childish response by the owner of this shop is the worst case of bad PR I have ever seen. If I thought the dive op was a place to be avoided before I read his response, I now think it should be shut down. This person should not be in the dive industry. He blames everyone but himself and his op for a total failure of safe practices that came very close to being fatal for at least one diver. He denies, obfuscates, offers piss-poor and laughable defenses, and comes across as a whiny child crying "it's not my fault! He's telling lies!" The "actions" he claims he will take are pitiful and trivial at best, in relation to the severity of the incident and the potential for repeat.

I've dived with three different dive ops in Indonesia, and while the safety standards definitely differ from what we're used to in the West, none of them came even close to the total FUBAR behavior of this dive op that has been displayed...not just in the incident itself, but right here in this thread.

That was a huge mistake. The loss of business due to the debacle will be bad enough...but the loss of business due to this self-serving, insulting and whiny response will be exponentially larger.

Thanks to everyone who brought this to the attention of the diving community at large. You may very well have saved some lives.
 
I had a feeling you were going to take that line. Well thats a fair comment Devon, but why would you not believe whats being said. Do you have any reason to suggest its not the truth? I do believe it is the truth, I believe the photos are legit.
You know, you really do a very poor job in your attempts to cover up the truth here. Some things cannot be proven in a discussion like this but well founded speculations can support those beyond a reasonable doubt - and I got to say that you seem like a blithering fool or a liar here. I do not mean any insults here, just explaining how you seem, and I can only speculate at to which.

Devon did a fine job at pointing out how worthless the reference claims and photos are, but you're pretending to not notice. :silly:
I see a deliberate attempt to smear LL which has included me recieving PM's from someone who is badmouthing LL on this forum in an attempt to change my view. I could argue that they have no evidence either but why would I? The truth will come out one way or another.

My intital comment was to Don and it did not involve having court admissable evidence, it involved my personal opinion. It was in response to a number of comments he made in this and in the closed thread, which insinuated what you also appear to be saying, that Ton is lying. May I say that nobody has evidence of this either.

From your comments I can see you have not read the entire thread in the link. You are asking questions that are answered there, as I suggested to you initially if you care to read the thread you can make your own mind up. I will not be speculating any further.
I think the reasons that Devon reasks questions have more to do with calling for clarification or hinting at falsehoods. Keep in mind that we all know that the alleged post from the injured diver posting from Belgium was deleted and the member banned. The high standards of SB prevent Mods from sharing the evidence as to why such was done, but one can easily assume that it was a hoax with a comfortable degree of certainty.

Now, Devon is a Mod here and privy to behind the scene facts that he cannot post about, but if that alleged post from Belgium had been authentic and removed for other reasons, his approach here would be different I'm sure. One can safely assume that he knows it was a hoax and while he cannot say so, this information bolsters his already well founded stand here.

If you really are a blithering fool within this discussion, for your own safety I suggest you accept that the dangers, risks, and injuries have been real at that destination. If you are not a fool but just a liar, well - you have to live with your wrongs. We don't, and I think most here will easily reject your postings as worthless as best.

It's sad that LL didn't come on to admit mistakes, promise amends and accept responsibilities. We would have admired that. His actions were also so underhanded that he got banned. Again, the reasons for him being banned cannot be posted on an open forum like this, but one might speculate that his IP and that of the alleged post from Belgium might have been the same - a reasonable speculation I think.

By the way, where are you posting from now exactly...??

have a nice trip and protect yourself
 
It's sad that LL didn't come on to admit mistakes, promise amends and accept responsibilities. We would have admired that.

My point exactly. His response could be used in a business class as the ultimate example of the exact OPPOSITE of how to respond when there's been an accident/incident at your dive op. It was so wrong that it was almost laughable - except for the fact that someone almost died. I don't care how "minor" her injuries turned out to be - the indisputable fact was that a diver was caught by her wetsuit within close proximity of the actively spinning propellers on the back of, and being dragged across the open ocean by, an out-of-control burning boat. The very thought of that makes me shudder and feel rather sick.

And the way that the owner tried to minimize this horrific incident made me feel sick as well.

The funny thing is, had it not been for the owner's response, I would have been inclined to read the reports of the incident with at least an open mind that it wasn't as god-awfully FUBAR as they reported, and that there was at least a little hyperbole and exaggeration going on. But after reading the owner's response, I have zero doubt that it happened pretty much the way it's been described by the divers who witnessed it.

I feel very bad for the employees and families whose livelihoods depend on this criminally unsafe dive op, and I hope they are able to find gainful employment elsewhere. But I wouldn't let a single diver I know go within miles of that op.
 
I had a feeling you were going to take that line. Well thats a fair comment Devon, but why would you not believe whats being said. Do you have any reason to suggest its not the truth? I do believe it is the truth, I believe the photos are legit.

I have several reasons, and I will share my observations - based only on what can be seen on the thread/s.

I would add that I have no personal interest in this issue, no vendetta and no axe to grind. I have never been to Lumba Lumba. I wasn't present at the accident. I've never met any of the parties involved. That means I hold no specific views on the incident, the quality of diving/safety at LL, or any other claim/accusation/defence made in any of the related threads. Frankly, I don't give a damn.

I only got interested in the thread when 'Dorien' made her appearance. Like many others, I strongly suspected that she was not genuine. I do not like dishonesty. In that respect, I am not concerning myself with the incident itself, merely the appearance of 'Dorien', and whether/if falsehood exists.... and what this might say about the nature of the dive operator concerned.

My thoughts, in a nut shell;

1) The 'Belgian victim' mysteriously appears on several scuba forums (all of which Ton is a member of) and posts the same comment onto each forum. That comment is highly supportive of Lumba Lumba; basically a glowing reference. No further posts are made by that person, but Ton immediately steps up on each forum to continue the 'defence'. The ultimate goal of the victim's post seems to be to quash any debate/criticism of Lumba Lumba on this and other issues. That's unusual. One would expect a victim to share their side of the story, maybe even to defend the dive centre in an attempt to put the facts right.... but not to attempt to discredit observers/commenters who were analysing the issue and causes.

2) I, personally, find the tone and nature of the victim's post to be quite unnatural given the incident that happened and the injuries that were sustained. Whilst a victim might not decide that an operation was blame-worthy for their injuries, they are highly unlikely to be gushing with public praise and support either. The way that the victim introduces herself in the post, seems to hint that the message was written in the third-person and this is accidentally transfered in the phrasing. Thou doest protest too much....

3) The writing style of the 'Belgian victim' is remarkably simular to Ton's IMHO. Especially in regards to punctuation (use of comma) to break down sentences unnecessarily. Simularity of writing style seems unlikely from two separate writers, neither of whom speak English as their primary language.

4) Members of this, and other, forums have suspected sock-puppetry and asked for some form of clarification from the 'Belgian victim', but none has ever been forthcoming. Only the single initial post was made (an identical post that was cut&paste into multiple forums). If this woman felt so strongly about the issue (she did so, when she joined and posted into multiple forums), why has she not returned to provide undeniable evidence of her existence/identity.

5) How did the Belgian victim learn of the various forum threads (on multiple boards) discussing the matter? Did she spend her time searching hundreds of scuba forums in the uncanny anticipation that this matter was being discussed? She wasn't a member of any of these forums before... only joining these forums shortly after Ton had posted his lengthy defensive diatribe. The timing is amazing. Of all the forums, in all the world... she just happened to appear on those.... right after Ton decided to make his public defence. Spooky...

6) The photos of the 'victim', look distinctly asian in skin tone and hair growth. Did the victim get her legs waxed despite the open wounds? Also, the scaring seems to be at very different stages of healing. The cuts on the foot are still fresh and not sealed. They are small cuts, less than 1 month old. The cuts on the leg have healed completely and only scar discoloration remains... despite these scars indicating much larger/wider wounds. They look much older than 1 month. And yet, the photos were taken at the same time, same location? How is that possible? Furthermore, both photos indicate no changes in suntan, when the victim would have been bandaged. I don't believe the photos are of a caucasian person. I don't believe that the photos illustrate 2 wounds that occured at the same time/same incident. I don't believe that the second photo indicates a recent wound.

7) Even if the photos were genuine, there are a dozen different reasons why LL would have photos of the victim's injury. Not least because of legal issues and the need to report the incident to the authorities and agencies concerned (including the dive agencies). The existence of photos in now way confirms the authenticity of member 'Dorien' posts on the scuba forums.


The only conclusion I would make is that this whole incident has been a perfect illustration of a PR disaster for LL. Regardless of the original facts and events, the way this has been dealt with by LL has drawn huge amounts of attention, criticism and suspicion. It is a case-study in bad public relations. Unlike Hollywood... in the scuba diving industry, the phrase 'any press is good press', is not valid. If there is an accident, whether blame-worthy or not, then honest assessment, remedial planning, open-mindedness and clear, honest communication with the community is the way to ensure that future accidents are avoided...and the community are reassured of this.

Having managed dive centres myself, I can honestly feel sympathy for the situation that Ton and his team have found themselves in. I have no doubt that he is passionate and committed to running the best dive centre that he can (why else would any of us work in the scuba industry, if not for the passion?). When an accident happens, and the internet crucifixion begins, it is a terrible situation for the dive pro. Pride gets knocked. Ego ruffled. Livelihood jeapordised. Reputation tarnished.

That said... accidents are avoidable... and any dive operator must take some responsibility for what happens on their boat/premises. That operator should understand that many spectators don't actually care about what happened, they just care about what will happen... how the operator accepts responsibility, how they analyise the incident, how they listen to feedback and advice...what changes and improvements occur...

In this instance, the dive community is concerned that an incident was dealt with denial, rather than acceptance and pro-active investigation/remediation. Lessons can be learned from that.
 
There are even photos of the injuries of staff members and the Belgian woman. The injuries are much less than I expected after the maelstrom generated by a few spectators.
I think Lee (below) has it right; the limited extent of the victim's injuries does little to mitigate the severity of the accident that led to them. They are just a stroke of incredible luck. And the proximal causes of those injuries--a burning, out-of-control boat, and a spinning propeller gouging her leg--do not seem to be in dispute.

I don't care how "minor" her injuries turned out to be - the indisputable fact was that a diver was caught by her wetsuit within close proximity of the actively spinning propellers on the back of, and being dragged across the open ocean by, an out-of-control burning boat. The very thought of that makes me shudder and feel rather sick.
 
I think Lee (below) has it right; the limited extent of the victim's injuries does little to mitigate the severity of the accident that led to them. They are just a stroke of incredible luck. And the proximal causes of those injuries--a burning, out-of-control boat, and a spinning propeller gouging her leg--do not seem to be in dispute.

I agree. If I spray AK-47 bullets into a crowd and by some miracle only cause minor wounds instead of massive death, it does not mean what I did was reasonably safe.
 
Regarding the questionable identity of "Dorien" on these and other forums, on the Lonely Plant forum is this thread:

Divemaster course @ Lumba Lumba, Gapang Beach, Pulau Weh - Lonely Planet travel forum

The topic of the Lumba2 accident comes up in the thread. This reply from someone calling him/herself "Dorien" then appears:


But then another poster comments:

10
I'm confused now! Your username seems to indicate that you are Dorien, the Belgian diver who was injured, but the way you signed the message with the name Ton in the original message that was posted (which I received in an email notification of a new post in a watched thread), it seems that you are the co-owner of Lumba-Lumba. Here is the text of the notification I received. Who are you? Dorien or Ton?


You are watching the thread "Divemaster course @ Lumba Lumba, Gapang Beach, Pulau Weh", which was updated on Jun 10, 2011 1:23:12 AM by dorienb:

<http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=2064652>

For your convenience, the new message is included below:
For a full report, please refer to Lumba Lumba – Pulau Weh – Serious Safety Concerns – and a dangerous incident

Ton
--------------------------------------------------------------

(Bold/italics are mine)
 
Wow. This debacle just gets worse and worse.

Similar to DevonDiver, I have no direct skin in this game, other than an interest in knowing who the good dive ops are, and making sure my dive buddies know who to avoid when they travel. I also have a strong interest in maintaining the integrity of this board, which is an important resource for me, and many other divers, when we are searching for dive ops to use in our travels.

To learn that a dive op is deceitfully using sock puppets, and even usurping a real person's identity, in order to spread misinformation and outright lies so as to avoid accepting responsibility for their accident, is shocking and disgusting, and completely violates the rules of this community (not to mention the rules of basic ethics).

If you check that Lonely Planet thread, it has now been made clear that the person posting as Dorien is actually posting from an Indonesian IP. (Methinks Ton must not be aware how easy it is to check someone's IP address when they send an email or post on a forum.)

So, based on all of the evidence both here and elsewhere, it is my opinion beyond a shadow of a doubt that the dive op has been pretending to be the diver that his operation INJURED in their criminally negligent accident.

DIVERS BEWARE! IMO, this is not somebody you want to trust your life to.

I would also encourage anyone who has any way to get ahold of the *real* Dorien, to find her and let her know. This could be criminally actionable (IINAL...IJS).

Editing to add: After closely reviewing those posts on the Lonely Planet forum, I believe I have figured out what happened:

1. User "annalie" started a thread with an endorsement of Lumba Lumba.
2. This inspired some discussion among other members asking questions about the incident, including user "Quero", who apparently set the thread on watch (which means he'll be emailed about any new posts to it).
3. User "dorienb" posted to the thread. This post included a link to a thread on another forum, and was signed "Ton"
4. The message board automatically emailed Quero of the new post from "dorienb", which included the original text of the post (with Ton's signature)
5. User "dorienb" clearly went in and EDITED her/his post, taking out the signature of Ton.
6. But, since the system had already emailed Quero with the original text of the "doreinb" post, he has the evidence that Ton was the actual poster, since he signed it.

This is exactly what would happen if someone had THIS thread on watch. My original post, without this explanation, is what would be emailed out...so there would be evidence that my post had been edited, and what was in the original post. Clearly, the original post was signed by Ton.

Busted.
 
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