Accident at Lake Rawlings Sunday 05/27/2012

[boulderjohn]

I want to thank the rescue team and all of the folks that participated in helping her and I want to ask that instead of laying out blame or playing Judge Judy here on Scuba Board, ask yourself what if was me in the instructor's shoes or what if it was me her husband and/or family member....How would you feel reading this post.

The best advice I can give is to send your prayers out to those involved and the family and be thankful that some folks put their necks out to save her.

That's why friends and family of the deceased are specifically told that it is best not to read the threads in the Accident and Incident section of ScubaBoard, and that is why we have a special forum (not this one) for giving those condolences and best wishes.

 

[TSandM]

Personally, I think that accidents that occur to people who are under instruction are the ones it would be most constructive to know the details on, because people under instruction are supposedly being kept "safe" by the professionals who are teaching them. I know that, if there is a lesson to be learned from a case like this, I would like to learn it. It is bad enough that one instructor has to go through the heartbreak and extreme stress of losing a student -- but if there are any teaching points from the event, and they go unmentioned, and someone else makes the same mistake and loses ANOTHER student, that's even more tragic.

 

[snowmaker]

This forum is here so we can discuss and learn from diving incidents. While this sport is very safe they will always be incidents and we should strive to learn from each of them so no one repeats the same mistakes. I understand there are lawyers involved and law suits may be filed but we as divers should want to know what happened so we can ensure the same issues are not repeated.

To say the police are involve and the true will come out is somewhat unrealistic. I have no issue with those investigating this incident but from experience it's hard for those without the proper background to fully understand what happened. Unless those investigating have a strong understanding of not just SCUBA but instruction classes in these environments it's hard to understand and draw correct conclusions.

If discussing this can help improve the way just one instructor conducts training dives in low vis environments we have made a positive difference in our diving community.

 

[Colliam7]

This is incorrect (although in the particular instance, perhaps irrelevant due to a lack of a CA).

Sorry, Peter, it is NOT incorrect. Your assertion is wrong. From the (same) PADI Instructor Manual 2012, on Page 42, several lines above your excerpted passage: 'Direct Supervision: 1. Do not leave student divers unattended, either at the surface or underwater.' You cannot leave an OW student, participating in OW dives, unattended in the water. I was specifically referring to a situation where you do not have a CA, and you need to conduct skills such as a CESA or an Alternate Air Source Ascent. In fact, the sentence in my post, immediately preceding the one you quoted, was, 'Without a CA, there will still be logistical challenges.' Without a CA, you can't leave them 'unattended' on the surface, or on a platform underwater. Yes, if you have a CA, you have certain flexibility, as your noted exceptions allow. You can leave students on the surface with the CA, while you conduct underwater exercises, for example. I think most of us use a CA that way. That is not leaving the students 'unattended'. But, again, my point was made in the specific context of not having a CA, and was made in response to Mark Derail's questions about the absence of a DM.

In addition, the definition of "Direct Supervision" is to my mind, perhaps a little vague. It appears to be very clear that "direct supervision" does NOT mean being within arm's reach (or else how could you "directly supervise" 8 students at once!).

I don't think the definition is vague. But, I very much agree with you, that it does not mean within arm's reach, either. My point was - if you, as an instructor, elect to conduct an OW dive without a CA, you cannot leave unattended OW students underwater, or on the surface. That is clear and unambiguous. If I am working on the CESA, with a group of 6 students, without a CA, I cannot ascend to the surface with a student, leaving 5 unattended OW students on the platform 25 feet below, even though I have seen more than a few instructors do just that. I don't think 'direct supervision' can be construed to mean that.

 

[boulderjohn]

Sorry, Peter, it is NOT incorrect. Your assertion is wrong. From the (same) PADI Instructor Manual 2012, on Page 42, several lines above your excerpted passage: 'Direct Supervision: 1. Do not leave student divers unattended, either at the surface or underwater.'

According to PADI standards, a single instructor is allowed to handle up to 8 students. Can you explain how this can be done with skills like CESA or alternate air ascent? As I read your post, it is not possible for a single instructor to deal with more than a student at a time. I must be misunderstanding.

 

[Hawkwood]

I have had it told to me that the student(s) not doing the skill also have to make the ascents so that everyone is up and down together. When I have been alone with only two students, that was what I did during the CESA. The student not doing the CESA came up along us. I avoid not using an assistant like the plague.

The full eight would require a lot of "up and downs" on the part of the students. If they all managed without ear issues, they'd certainly be pretty good at controlling their ascent speed! Not something that I am going to try though - I don't think I could control the situation and I'm sure I'd have all of us spread throughout the water column!

Bill

 

[boulderjohn]

I have had it told to me that the student(s) not doing the skill also have to make the ascents so that everyone is up and down together. When I have been alone with only two students, that was what I did during the CESA. The student not doing the CESA came up along us. I avoid not using an assistant like the plague.

The full eight would require a lot of "up and downs" on the part of the students. If they all managed without ear issues, they'd certainly be pretty good at controlling their ascent speed! Not something that I am going to try though - I don't think I could control the situation and I'm sure I'd have all of us spread throughout the water column!

How would one handle the under water navigation? Would all 8 students have to swim in a pack following the one doing the navigation over and over and over again until everyone had done it?

 

[Hawkwood]

John,

I suppose that is the only way you could do it. I can't imagine controlling that many "cats" while evaluating the one diver doing the navigation.

I've never thought about working alone with any more than 2 students as that is my limit. Not a problem keeping to together together that way.

I had the experience when in Barbados of diving with an Instructor who had two students mixed in with us. It was way cool how he handled it. They swam as buddies and every now and then he would stop and have them do the skills - all in mid water. The CESAs were done at the end of each dive when they ascended. Navigation was no problem as the one buddy just swam along as the other did the compass work.

My mind boggles at more than two. Goodness, if I was stuck in that position of dealing with eight, it's going to be a long day for all of us - four groups of two, with only two in the water with me at any one time.

Geeze, even thinking about leading the "tour" on my own with eight students would put me off breakfast for those days.

My teaching conditions are challenging - cold with low vis at the best of times, going to pot when the silt gets stirred up.

Bill

 

[bankyf]

I have had it told to me that the student(s) not doing the skill also have to make the ascents so that everyone is up and down together. When I have been alone with only two students, that was what I did during the CESA. The student not doing the CESA came up along us. I avoid not using an assistant like the plague.

The full eight would require a lot of "up and downs" on the part of the students. If they all managed without ear issues, they'd certainly be pretty good at controlling their ascent speed! Not something that I am going to try though - I don't think I could control the situation and I'm sure I'd have all of us spread throughout the water column!

Bill

Not sure that works either, 7 additional ascent/decents would be tough and very risky on a new student and I would think it would be frowned upon. Besides that, how do you keep an eye on 7 additional students ascending while controlling a CESA with one of them? In my opinion it would be FAR safer to leave the additional on the surface. The only truly correct answer is that the other 7 wait on shore while the skill is performed. This is one of those things that really cannot realistically be done 100% to the standards. Perhaps that is why you see so many instructors violating this rule.

 

[Hawkwood]

Geeze louise - I'm not defending the practice. There is nothing to prevent it either.

bankyt, FYI - CESAs can be on dives 2 to 4. With this theoretical 8 students, it does not mean having to do eight ascents and descents all in a row. There is no "rule to violate". It is a matter of Risk Assessment and what an Instructor choses to do - whether you or I agree to their decision or not. In my limited 2 years of teaching I have yet to see an Instructor do it.