Accepting Responsibility for Your Own Safety

[ScubaSteve1962]

As I understand the practice and training for a career in medicine, it kind of brings up something that may be pertinent here.

A prospective physician attends the school of their choice for 4 years of undergrad work, then for 4 years of med school, all the while being supervised in a classroom situation by professors who may or not be physicians themselves. Following Med school, a physician would undergo some type of internship where they would be supervised by practicing physicians and every move they make questioned and quizzed. Following internship, a physician might be a resident somewhere, where they would always report to and have the chief resident watching over them. Eventually, a physician might open their own practice and still have privileges at a local hospital, where they are responsible to no one in their practice, but must report to the chief medical officer at the hospital or have their privileges revoked.

Diving isn't that way. When you earn your c-card you have earned the right to call yourself a diver and dive to the limits of your training, experience, and comfort level. If you don't feel comfortable, trained, or experienced to dive to 60 feet NDL dives, well then, you need more training, experience or comfort. Comfort comes with training and experience. Anyway, if you need a divemaster or a buddy to hold your hand, tell you when to add air to your BC, make sure you listen to the dive briefing and not get 10 feet off the wall in Cozumel (all of which you learned or should have learned in OW class, to say nothing of AOW and Rescue), then that person isn't a diver, they are a student, or a DSD, or anything but a diver.

Had I realized after 22 dives that I didn't feel that I could trust myself on a dive, or found out that I was ill-equipped to take responsibility for myself with the bounds of my training, experience or comfort, I'd go back to my certifying instructor and punch him or her. Right smack in the nuts. Or whatever. This instructor has done a disservice to the diver and to the greater diving community.

Shouldn't you talk to the others in the class to see if they feel the same way before blaming the instructor, as a student you may have just missed the message.

 

[captain]

Any student fresh out of OW, although nervous, should be able to safely conduct a dive within their training. A DM may be hired as a dive guide, but to rely on one for safety sounds as if someone didn't pay attention in class. After several more classes to still think this way tells me that the diver should consider another pastime.

I agree.
Why are some assuming it was bad instruction. Are we assuming it was the same instructor that he took OW, AOW, nitrox and rescue from or do we know it. It may very well have been. but even so after 4 certs and 22 dives I get the feeling that Doc is not and may never be of the temperment to be a diver.

 

[Wookie]

Shouldn't you talk to the others in the class to see if they feel the same way before blaming the instructor, as a student you may have just missed the message.

3 classes. OW, AOW and Rescue. If the message was missed with the instructor 3 times, it's the instructors fault, not the students. Even if it was the student's fault, it's still the instructor's fault for not noticing that the student is out to lunch.

Yes, I assume it was the same instructor, but for those who are instructors, wouldn't you notice on the first dive of Rescue (Rescue, fer christsakes?!?!?!?!) that the student isn't confident to be a diver, much less a rescue diver? IT'S RESCUE, PEOPLE!

 

[Stoo]

As a retired Instructor of 25+ years (including a couple running a dive operation in Tobermory, Canada and then a stint in the Carribbean), let me toss in my $.02 worth. Way back, when I was actively teaching, the objective of the course was to train someone to dive and to be able to manage most situations that they were likely to run into as a novice diver. The typical course (I taught NAUI, PADI was barely invented...) was 12 weeks minimum of two-hour classroom theory (some of which was pretty dry... medical, deco theory, currents and tides etc) and and 90 minute pool sessions. Then we had an late afternoon/evening dive in a local quarry, followed by two weekends of open-water dives... typically 12 dives and included a night dive. Those that made it through, and many came back for do-overs, knew how to dive.

These days, it seems to me that the objective of many courses, is to teach "limits" and to encourage further training. I agree that these are both sensible, but I think that the down side is that new "divers" come out of a course with a shiny new card, but they also have a belief that they are really only "qualified" to do a very specific type of dive. As a result, some have almost a sense of paranoia. A feeling that because they haven't done 17 courses, they don't have the skill and knowledge to do many or most dives. Part of the reason I refuse to start teaching again is that I refuse to "adjust" my standards (I purposely chose not to say "lower") to meet the guys down the street... here's the book and DVD... come to the pool Saturday, the quarry Sunday... and BAM... You're a DIVER! Ya, right...

Here's another example... Last winter, but daughter wanted to do some travelling and writing. After some discussion, she moved to Utila for the winter. I have friends there and felt comfortable with her being there. Of course she decided to take up diving... Awesome! So over the course of the next few days and weeks, I get this series of emails... finished my OW I, then OW II, then Rescue Diver, then Night Diver and on and on... So over the course of MAYBE 5 or 6 weeks, she has amassed more certifications than I have... But she had never been diving "outside" of the controlled environment a course. She had never been diving without an Instructor holding her hand. And then all of a sudden, she announces that she has been enrolled in a Divemaster course! WTF??? I had visions of her guiding tourists a week later.

I decided to visit her of course, and we had a terrific week of diving. She was good in the water, perhaps overly confident (as she is with most things) and I started to think that maybe there is something to this system. Then on one dive, we headed over the wall, and when we hit 100", she hit the brakes and started signalling that she had to go up. At first I thought she was feeling "off" or something but she looked fine, but regardless, up we went... Later, on the boat, she explained that she had been fine, but her certification didn't "allow" her to go beyond 100'. She hadn't yet taken the "Deep Diver" specialty or whatever it's called.

Was that a bad thing? No of course not.. but my point is that she really believed something terrible was likely to happen is she strayed to 110' or so. Even though she was with me (and most of the staff at this shop chuckled that I had been diving longer than all of them put together...) she was genuinely freaked about this agency-mandated limit.


Just to be clear, I think this "PADI Way" has it's merits, as long as the student diver buys into the on-going training. If they don't however, I think you end up with a diver who, rightly or wrongly, may be lacking the confidence to simply go for a dive... Perhaps this is just another manifestation of the "Nanny State"... Always the "expectation" that someone else will be there to look out for you.

Up here in the Great Lakes, the concept of hiring a diveguide/DM is rare, but not unheard of. When it does occur, I think it's more for them to act as guides in the true sense... someone to show them around a certain wreck, and find the up-line again.

I noticed that the OP appears to be on the sunny-side of life (as am I), and that might also contribute to his feeling that he would prefer to have a guide or DM accompany him on his dives. While I am the last one on earth to want this (about 95% of my northern diving is solo) I certainly think that hiring a guide doesn't mean he isn't prepared to take responsibility for his actions. He might just feel that it will add to his enjoyment of the dive and there is certainly nothing wrong with that.

In a week, I will be on a liveaboard in Turks and Caicos. For the most part, Mrs. Stoo and I will be off doing our own thing... But if one of the DMs points out that they might see the elusive three-eyed, spiny elephant fish, because there was one there last week, I will certainly tag along...

 

[jmneill]

3 classes. OW, AOW and Rescue. If the message was missed with the instructor 3 times, it's the instructors fault, not the students. Even if it was the student's fault, it's still the instructor's fault for not noticing that the student is out to lunch.

Yes, I assume it was the same instructor, but for those who are instructors, wouldn't you notice on the first dive of Rescue (Rescue, fer christsakes?!?!?!?!) that the student isn't confident to be a diver, much less a rescue diver? IT'S RESCUE, PEOPLE!

Money for plastic.

 

[drrich2]

I'd suggest a trip to Bonaire for lots of shore diving without the added distraction to needing to keep up with a group, with an eye toward building a disciplined dive style - frequent air gauge checking (preferably with a dive computer with an audible alarm set at a PSI level as a backup, like the idiot lights on a car) and depth monitoring. And sticking to sites with fairly easy entry/exit where navigation is not challenging. Simply not feeling observed & judged by a group (even if they're aren't doing either) can be a comfort and help you focus on what you're doing.

'Safety' is one of those terms everybody uses but I wonder sometimes how much we share the definition. Diving is an adventure sport in nature; there's no tape at 100 feet cordoning off the reef to prevent people from going too deep. A dive excursion simply doesn't have the kind of 'safety inspection' that a medication or some commercial products have. Nature is not fool proof! (Not calling anybody a fool; please don't misunderstand).

When I was a kid, I swam in farm ponds, rode a bicycle without a helmet, roamed the woods & climbed trees alone, etc... Over the course of my childhood, I broke bones in 3 occasions. That said, I don't smoke, drink or drug. Diving, I watch my gauges pretty diligently and try to be mindful of roughly where my buddy is, but we don't swim side-by-side in 'formation' (in warm, high-viz. Bonaire).

Reading Jim Lapenta's post elsewhere on the forum about buddy diving was an eye opener; some people do it a lot different from me. My neighbor's little boys riding bicycles with helmets & pads (looked like midget roller bladers to me) were different. Some people wouldn't dream of swimming in water that wasn't clear, clean & chlorinated (whereas I tried real hard to believe that was a dirt clod floating past my head. Note to self - dirt clots don't float...).

What I'm saying in a round-about way, is I suggest practice in good, easy conditions you're comfortable with, making a special effort to monitor your air & depth, and doing some soul-searching on what 'safe' means to you, and how you reconcile that to the realities of diving.

Richard.

 

[IanBrit]

Sorry to cross post, but after Matt's "No one is competent straight out of OW" statement, I had to go dig this up:

[h=2]The right way to get certified[/h]

People will tell you that you should get certified in the states through a formal course, then go to the Caribbean. They tell you not to get certified in the Caribbean, "Because they just want to get you in and out as quickly as possible". They say you'll have much greater skill as a scuba diver doing it in the states first.

Well, I did it both ways, and I don't agree. As long as you get certified at a reputable resort with dedicated and thorough instructors, you'll learn just fine there. And you'll have more fun, because generally speaking the people in a resort are nicer. They know you're there to have a good time, and they make sure that the learning experience is an enjoyable one.​

​

How thorough were those resort trainers?

 

[chrpai]

I did my OW and AOW at Grand Lido Sans Souci in Ochos Rios Jamaica and as far as I know the course was fairly thorough. It certainly instilled enough love and confidence in diving to go home to Virginia and meet up with a former coworker for a day of diving at Lake Rawlings. I do know that I learned enough to know that my buddy wasn't really the best buddy in the world.

From there I went out and dived a lot. Along the way I picked up my Nitrox and Rescue training. AFAIK my 'resort' origins haven't harmed me.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

Sorry to cross post, but after Matt's "No one is competent straight out of OW" statement, I had to go dig this up:

The right way to get certified

People will tell you that you should get certified in the states through a formal course, then go to the Caribbean. They tell you not to get certified in the Caribbean, "Because they just want to get you in and out as quickly as possible". They say you'll have much greater skill as a scuba diver doing it in the states first.

Well, I did it both ways, and I don't agree. As long as you get certified at a reputable resort with dedicated and thorough instructors, you'll learn just fine there. And you'll have more fun, because generally speaking the people in a resort are nicer. They know you're there to have a good time, and they make sure that the learning experience is an enjoyable one.​

​

How thorough were those resort trainers?

once again, I wonder how many of the other students feel the way Matt does? Or did Matt reach a comfort level and he's happy where he's at? Having taking classes at my LDS, a dive shop in HI, and A resort in Jamaica, I left all of them with the same message, you are able to do the dive you've trained for with another diver of equal of higher training, but to become a better diver you're going to have to continue to dive. I don't know if this was conveyed in Matts case, but it seems like he missed the message. He was to busy having to much fun.

 

[xdjio]

I don't think anybody who has only done OW is qualified to dive without a DM. Not me, and not anybody else either. And SB members are welcome to tell me I'm incompetent, or dumb, or didn't pay attention in class, etc. But I disagree. Nobody fresh out of driver's ed is qualified to drive with only another fresh driver, and nobody fresh out of OW is qualified to dive only with another new OW graduate buddy.

Madness. I got my OW in Feb 2011, and I felt perfectly competent to conduct dives I planned myself, with buddies of similar skill, in comparable conditions. No problem. We planned our dives, dove our plans.

I'm more concerned about your (apparent) lack of confidence in your own abilities. It sounds to me like you got severely shortchanged in your training.