Accepting Responsibility for Your Own Safety

[captain]

Doc's certification time line. It appears that it wasn't all one instructor. It appeares to me this as I said before is not an instructor issue it is a student issue.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...g/400554-my-non-certification-experience.html

 

[Peter Guy]

Sticking my nose in someplace where perhaps it shouldn't be, but I feel the need to make a comment about being a "Rescue Diver."

I started a Rescue class last night -- two divers, one of whom took his OW and AOW from me -- and who has, perhaps, 10 dives locally (more dives tropically). The other student is new to me and has, maybe, 45 dives -- including the new PADI Missile Silo Distinctive Specialty (but who had never heard of gas management before!).

This class will have two lecture sessions, two pool sessions and two open water sessions and they'll go through the various scenarios, as I'm sure Matt did in his Rescue Class. I also know that once my two students finish this class they will NOT be "competent" to go rescue someone who is in trouble -- especially if that rescue happens to come 6 - 12 months later. My hope is that, by the end of this class, they will be able to see what situations might get them into trouble and have enough (new) experience to keep themselves from getting into those situations.

And yes, IF they happen to run into a tired diver, they'll be able to help bring her to shore. But doing a REAL "rescue?" Nope.

And, of course, there really is very little diving involved so I'm pretty sure their overall diving skills won't be improved by this class at all -- as I suspect Matt's overall diving skills weren't sharpened at all by his Rescue class.

As far as the other comments many have made regarding Matt's "adventures" underwater -- yes, he needs to rethink his approach to diving IF he wants to become a safer, more responsible, diver. OTOH, if he doesn't, oh well -- that's his choice.

 

[RickyF]

Sticking my nose in someplace where perhaps it shouldn't be, but I feel the need to make a comment about being a "Rescue Diver."

I started a Rescue class last night -- two divers, one of whom took his OW and AOW from me -- and who has, perhaps, 10 dives locally (more dives tropically). The other student is new to me and has, maybe, 45 dives -- including the new PADI Missile Silo Distinctive Specialty (but who had never heard of gas management before!).

This class will have two lecture sessions, two pool sessions and two open water sessions and they'll go through the various scenarios, as I'm sure Matt did in his Rescue Class. I also know that once my two students finish this class they will NOT be "competent" to go rescue someone who is in trouble -- especially if that rescue happens to come 6 - 12 months later. My hope is that, by the end of this class, they will be able to see what situations might get them into trouble and have enough (new) experience to keep themselves from getting into those situations.

Peter,
I am rescue certified, and to me being able to control your bouyancy is paramount to be able to perform the skills part of the class. How could someone who has very little bouyancy skills, poor gas management pass the skills part of a panic'd diver or unresponsive diver where you use the victum's BC to ascend. i would say almost 90% of divers with less than 40-50 dives have improved their basic skills to really qualify to be able to take the rescue class. This is where I have a real problem with a lot of angencies minimum required dives or skills to advance. I had over 300 dives in all kinds of conditions before I even thought about taking it and my instructor put me through the ringer. I guess I just don't understand how someone like this could get certified?

 

[Wookie]

Sticking my nose in someplace where perhaps it shouldn't be, but I feel the need to make a comment about being a "Rescue Diver."

I started a Rescue class last night -- two divers, one of whom took his OW and AOW from me -- and who has, perhaps, 10 dives locally (more dives tropically). The other student is new to me and has, maybe, 45 dives -- including the new PADI Missile Silo Distinctive Specialty (but who had never heard of gas management before!).

This class will have two lecture sessions, two pool sessions and two open water sessions and they'll go through the various scenarios, as I'm sure Matt did in his Rescue Class. I also know that once my two students finish this class they will NOT be "competent" to go rescue someone who is in trouble -- especially if that rescue happens to come 6 - 12 months later. My hope is that, by the end of this class, they will be able to see what situations might get them into trouble and have enough (new) experience to keep themselves from getting into those situations.

And yes, IF they happen to run into a tired diver, they'll be able to help bring her to shore. But doing a REAL "rescue?" Nope.

And, of course, there really is very little diving involved so I'm pretty sure their overall diving skills won't be improved by this class at all -- as I suspect Matt's overall diving skills weren't sharpened at all by his Rescue class.

As far as the other comments many have made regarding Matt's "adventures" underwater -- yes, he needs to rethink his approach to diving IF he wants to become a safer, more responsible, diver. OTOH, if he doesn't, oh well -- that's his choice.

Peter, I have the utmost respect for you. I've only met you and Lynne on chatboards, but we share friends who also think very highly of you (Y'all). You are starting a rescue class, and by the end of the class, you aren't sure your students will be able to perform a rescue????? I am floored. I don't think I had more than 45 or 50 dives when I did rescue, and I actually did rescue, 5 specialties and Master Scuba Diver in 17 days in Akumal one year, but I could sure as hell control my buoyancy, felt fully confident traipsing off by myself to do a search for a body, could rescue breath while flinging gear in all directions, go under and come up behind a panicked diver in open water, etc. All of which I had to do within a year of getting certified as a rescue diver. Now, I didn't ever have to do it in a 7 mil or a drysuit, but then, I still don't use a 7 mil, although I switch to a drysuit when it gets cold, anything below 80. For you to short change your students by assuming that they will not be able to use the skills you are about to impart to them when you get done is IMHO disappointing, to say the least.

Why not teach them to do rescues. It only takes a few more hours to build their confidence to the point where they too will feel comfortable doing a body search, hauling a diver back to the beach, calming a panicked diver, etc. I know you're not selling the card, and it doesn't take much more effort to instill the skills than to merely show "mastery" of the skills. The life they save could possibly be yours. Or Lynnes. Or mine.

 

[fnfalman]

If you're a safe, conscientious diver with a like-minded buddy, then what exactly will the dive master do for you to keep you safe?

 

[diverrex]

Sticking my nose in someplace where perhaps it shouldn't be, but I feel the need to make a comment about being a "Rescue Diver."

I started a Rescue class last night -- two divers, one of whom took his OW and AOW from me -- and who has, perhaps, 10 dives locally (more dives tropically). The other student is new to me and has, maybe, 45 dives -- including the new PADI Missile Silo Distinctive Specialty (but who had never heard of gas management before!).

This class will have two lecture sessions, two pool sessions and two open water sessions and they'll go through the various scenarios, as I'm sure Matt did in his Rescue Class. I also know that once my two students finish this class they will NOT be "competent" to go rescue someone who is in trouble -- especially if that rescue happens to come 6 - 12 months later. My hope is that, by the end of this class, they will be able to see what situations might get them into trouble and have enough (new) experience to keep themselves from getting into those situations.

And yes, IF they happen to run into a tired diver, they'll be able to help bring her to shore. But doing a REAL "rescue?" Nope.

And, of course, there really is very little diving involved so I'm pretty sure their overall diving skills won't be improved by this class at all -- as I suspect Matt's overall diving skills weren't sharpened at all by his Rescue class.

As far as the other comments many have made regarding Matt's "adventures" underwater -- yes, he needs to rethink his approach to diving IF he wants to become a safer, more responsible, diver. OTOH, if he doesn't, oh well -- that's his choice.

Thank you for an honest assessment.

 

[wedivebc]

@Peter Guy
I have to echo Wookies comments and say I am surprised and frankly disappointed.
I would not certify a diver at any level who I would not be comfortable with them diving with my loved ones.
If you would not want your children diving with that student they should not get certified until you do.

 

[boulderjohn]

I wasn't sure whether or not to put this post in the full flame-red modpost format. Consider it an almost modpost suggestion.

This is a very difficult thread because of the way the topic was set up from the very beginning. I want to remind people that it is in the green zone, which has special rules. I think people in general have been pretty good about this, but we all should remember that the way to keep this thread consistent with the rules of this forum would be to focus on the generic question: to what degree should divers at beginning levels (or more advanced) be able to dive without supervision? Whether or not a particular individual should or should not have that level of skill is very much on or over the edge of the limits of the forum.

I am sure there are individual divers who seem to have skills that are not consistent with their training. One of the worst divers I ever saw had let all of us on the boat know he had Rescue Diver certification. If you followed the Gabe Watson trials, you will know that the reason he was found not guilty of murder was primarily because he was determined instead to be an incompetent diver, despite his NASDS Rescue Diver certification. All of that is possible.

But that should not be the point of the thread. Let's keep it to a useful discussion on diving limits in general.

 

[jewelofnile69]

I just spent my work afternoon reading through this entire thread (this site is dangerous). I'm a relatively new diver and did my OW in a crappy WI lake with terrible vis. My first dive vacation (Bonaire in 2011) just happened to have my DM along for the ride (he's my DH's best friend). So when we got in the water for our first check out dive, he essentially went through all the skills with me again to ensure I was still competent to dive (I did my OW in August of 2009 and hadn't yet dove until 2011). He did the 1st 2 dives with me as my buddy and then I barely saw him after that as he was either solo diving taking pictures for Bonaire Nights and Diver Magazine or wasn't with us at all (because his camera flooded one dive...whoops). I never once felt unsafe or that DH and our other 2 friends and I were diving passed my certification or comfort level. Buoyancy was so easy to figure out in the open sea so I am having a hard time figuring out why Matt has had so many issues with buoyancy...I can see that being an issue in a cold quarry in a 7mm (because I've been there) but not in Cozumel. I have YET to dive with a DM or DG since my first few dives in Bonaire as my next two trips to BOnaire were just DH and I as well as my trips to Key Largo and the fun, cold lakes of WI and IL. I have never once felt distrust in my training or incompetence in my ability to dive. Before every dive trip I read up on things and I continue to learn and dive in the sucky lakes and quarries up here because I want to enusre I know what I'm doing.

Thanks for everyone's comments!!

 

[redacted]

Some diver just don't pay attention to those things that provide situational awareness. They are so distracted by the UW environment that things like depth, NDL, tank pressure, buoyancy, buddies, and navigation are just not up on their radar. They need or even expect someone else to pay attention to those things.