Accepting Responsibility for Your Own Safety

[MXGratefulDiver]

Wow this is some thread for sure.

Last fall I dove with a guy that claimed to have just gotten his DM a couple months before and to have logged 200 dives total. His skills sucked big time.

I am not sure that a diver that is unsure of themselves to the point of liking to have a professional in the water with them is anywhere near as dangerous as a guy that thinks he knows it all after collecting a cert or two and so just goes and forges ahead getting himself, and maybe others that foolishly trust him, into stuff they have not right being in.

My thoughts as well. Whatever you think about the merits of someone's training, recognizing their limits and acting accordingly is taking responsibility for their safety. As you say, it's far better to fall back on asking someone else for help than it is to assume you have skills you don't have and get yourself in trouble because of it.

One of the things that gets uncomfortable reading threads like this one is the potential for the comments to inhibit someone from asking for assistance ... or from talking about why they feel the need for it. New divers tend to put a premium on peer pressure, and it's not uncommon for them to worry more about "ruining their buddy's good time" than to think about what's prudent for their own safety and comfort level. I like to tell the new diver I mentor to not hesitate doing whatever they feel is prudent in order to maintain their own limits and comfort level ... even if it means changing the dive plan or cutting the dive short. I tell them not to worry about "ruining my good time" ... because the best way to avoid that is to not put themselves in a situation where I might have to rescue them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Griffo]

I tell them not to worry about "ruining my good time" ... because the best way to avoid that is to not put themselves in a situation where I might have to rescue them.

Nice line. Might steal that one.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

Maybe a poll would be an interesting way to address some of these issues? I would love to see a poll asking divers if they felt confident enough, after their OW certification, to dive without supervision.

In all honesty, I would have said NO...and I was a good student, caught on pretty quickly, love adventure, etc. I think that I truly realized this after becoming more experienced and understanding some of the mistakes that I initially made. I probably got lucky and wonder if there are a lot of others who also do.

I think it's the system/agency...sometimes the instructor...and sometimes the dive shop. Obviously the dive industry is for-profit. Becoming more efficient leads to greater profit. Unfortunately, greater efficiency sometimes equates to a lower quality learning experience.

I've been an educator in the discipline of Kinesiology for 26 years now. Scuba is serious business in terms of acquiring skills and understanding concepts to ensure safety. That this is somehow supposed to happen in a couple of classroom and pool sessions, then a few dives...well, it may for some.

My instructor once told me that with Padi, no one fails. During my DM cert, I also learned much more about the latitude that an individual instructor may have in assessing a student's competency. For example, if a student is unable to clear their mask 4 times, then manages to clear it twice...is that a pass??

Honestly...I think that an OW certification should be the equivalent of a semester long class (where I teach, this would mean about 54 hours of classroom/pool/ocean training and actual dive time.

Perhaps in a perfect world...students would be willing to invest the time and agencies would be willing to sacrifice some degree of profit for a more extensive certification process.

I am PADI certified and my instructor didn't sign off on me until I passed my float test. so maybe it was just your instructor. It may be that don't don't fail people, just encourage them give up. I can see them passing people at resorts because the majority of those people will only dive again when on vacation, I don't agree with passing anyone that can't meet the outlined minimum requirements. I've seen an instructor okay a guy with out him not even meeting 1/10 of the minimum swim/float requirement and it wasn't PADI

Also, 54hrs courses would be unreal with a lot of older people getting into diving, and the ocean isn't an option for everyone. You have to remember this is a recreation sport, most are not trying to have career in diving.

 

[Stoo]

I have often felt that diving attracts more than it's share of "larger" people. It's one of the few "sports" where large, out-of-shape people can participate since fitness level isn't really of much concern... Until the excrement hits the oscillator.

Having a place in Tobermory, I spend a lot of time around divers coming up for their annual jaunt to this Mecca of fresh-water diving. I can't honestly say that larger folks make up any great proportion in the diving group than the general population. This might be that because our water is so cold, heavy wetsuits or drysuits are an absolute requirement. Stugglling into these things is enough to eliminate many.

Our local diving forum had a fitness/weight loss "challenge" running for a long time... it might still be... which addressed the fitness/obesity issue head on. As I understand it, a lot of people lost a lot of weight, and improved their overall fitness levels. Maybe we should try something similar here...

As an aside, when I was actively teaching, I don't recall ever failing someone in a course due to their obesity or fitness level... In truth, I don't remember it ever coming up. On the other hand, when I was a Training Director at a number of Instructor Training Courses, I did... Including one woman who was attempting to cross over from SSI. Apart from the fact that she could barely clear her mask, she was too fat to get her own fins on. Walking down the rocky shore to the water damn near killed her and I wasn't prepared to certify her. She got pretty cranky, wrote letters and so on, but fortunately, the staff at NAUI HQ backed me up. This was a long time ago mind you. We would probably get sued these days.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have often felt that diving attracts more than it's share of "larger" people. It's one of the few "sports" where large, out-of-shape people can participate since fitness level isn't really of much concern... Until the excrement hits the oscillator.

Having a place in Tobermory, I spend a lot of time around divers coming up for their annual jaunt to this Mecca of fresh-water diving. I can't honestly say that larger folks make up any great proportion in the diving group than the general population. This might be that because our water is so cold, heavy wetsuits or drysuits are an absolute requirement. Stugglling into these things is enough to eliminate many.

Our local diving forum had a fitness/weight loss "challenge" running for a long time... it might still be... which addressed the fitness/obesity issue head on. As I understand it, a lot of people lost a lot of weight, and improved their overall fitness levels. Maybe we should try something similar here...

As an aside, when I was actively teaching, I don't recall ever failing someone in a course due to their obesity or fitness level... In truth, I don't remember it ever coming up. On the other hand, when I was a Training Director at a number of Instructor Training Courses, I did... Including one woman who was attempting to cross over from SSI. Apart from the fact that she could barely clear her mask, she was too fat to get her own fins on. Walking down the rocky shore to the water damn near killed her and I wasn't prepared to certify her. She got pretty cranky, wrote letters and so on, but fortunately, the staff at NAUI HQ backed me up. This was a long time ago mind you. We would probably get sued these days.

Well, we might get sued, but NAUI will support your decision. NAUI standards not only allow you, but encourage you to not pass somneone you wouldn't feel comfortable diving with or training one of your loved ones. They call it the "Loved One Standard" and it's still in effect. If you have valid concerns about someone's ability to perform the duties of a dive professional, it's not only your right ... but your obligation ... to not pass them. NAUI will back you up as long as your concerns are valid.

Lack of fitness and lack of ability are definitely valid concerns.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[jewelofnile69]

I have often felt that diving attracts more than it's share of "larger" people. It's one of the few "sports" where large, out-of-shape people can participate since fitness level isn't really of much concern... Until the excrement hits the oscillator.

Having a place in Tobermory, I spend a lot of time around divers coming up for their annual jaunt to this Mecca of fresh-water diving. I can't honestly say that larger folks make up any great proportion in the diving group than the general population. This might be that because our water is so cold, heavy wetsuits or drysuits are an absolute requirement. Stugglling into these things is enough to eliminate many.

Our local diving forum had a fitness/weight loss "challenge" running for a long time... it might still be... which addressed the fitness/obesity issue head on. As I understand it, a lot of people lost a lot of weight, and improved their overall fitness levels. Maybe we should try something similar here...

As an aside, when I was actively teaching, I don't recall ever failing someone in a course due to their obesity or fitness level... In truth, I don't remember it ever coming up. On the other hand, when I was a Training Director at a number of Instructor Training Courses, I did... Including one woman who was attempting to cross over from SSI. Apart from the fact that she could barely clear her mask, she was too fat to get her own fins on. Walking down the rocky shore to the water damn near killed her and I wasn't prepared to certify her. She got pretty cranky, wrote letters and so on, but fortunately, the staff at NAUI HQ backed me up. This was a long time ago mind you. We would probably get sued these days.

Let's start a weight loss challenge then! I run them 2 times a year at work (my full-time job is in HR at an Insurance company) as well as at my part-time job as a personal trainer. The only question I would have would be how do you do that online?

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Does the term "Accepting Responsibility" tweak anyone else? I realize this is a minor point but it doesn't seem like a goal, but something we have to do since no one else will. Its like, well since no one else will, I guess I have to, maybe, kinda.....

I like the term "Taking Responsibility". Its a more proactive approach, I want the PRIMARY responsibility for my safety because I will do a better job (well, at least I will be highly motivated). It doesn't mean not to listen to others advice, but to personally bring your safety plan up front and center, rather than use you judgement as a contingency backup.

 

[Peter Guy]

[Note -- I really don't want to take this "Accepting Responsibility" thread off topic, but since it IS about "Accepting Responsibility" I feel compelled to reply to some posts and "take responsibility" for what I wrote about teaching a Rescue class. If someone (mod?) feels this should be stricken or taken somewhere else, do so.]

Several posters (a while back) expressed what I can only call dismay at what I wrote about my vision of the PADI Rescue class. They seemed to be especially concerned about the following:

I also know that once my two students finish this class they will NOT be "competent" to go rescue someone who is in trouble -- especially if that rescue happens to come 6 - 12 months later.

By the end of the class will they have demonstrated they can do a search for a diver on the bottom and safely surface that diver? Yes.

By the end of the class will they have demonstrated they can safely approach a diver and attempt to convince them to become bouyant on the surface? Yes.

By the end of the class will they have demonstrated they can tow a diver to a point certain and assist that diver out of the water? Yes.

By the end of the class will they have learned how to be a much safer diver and better teammate? Absolutely.

Will they be "competent" to do high stress rescues of distressed divers? Probably not -- that is why Public Safety Divers spend a lot of time learning how to do these activities. (Note, I did my DM training with our local Sheriff's Marine Unit and learned a lot about what, and how, they operate although I am NOT a PSD and have no desire to be one.)

Will they be "competent" to do a lot of those things they have demonstrated 6 - 12 months from now? Not if they don't practice them and given how much these students dive (or don't dive as the case may be), I don't have high hopes for that. My best hope is that, as a result of taking this class and seeing what can be done, they will have a memory that:

a. If they come across a "situation" that something CAN be done;

b. That they should NEVER put themselves into a position to be a second victim; and

c. That they need to think about their dives and diving to be a safe diver and good buddy.

If others train their recreational students to a much higher level, my hat's off to you.

BTW, I still contend that being able to maintain one's bouyancy control (i.e., maintaining your place in the water column) has very little, if anything, to do with a Rescue Class. I, for one, teach my students to become negative when attempting to surface a diver -- not to be neutral -- and use the victim's wing to bring both to the surface while maintaining a safe ascent rate by venting as appropriate. The only time I can think of that maintaining one's bouyancy control is necessary is during an air share and even then I'm not looking for Tech level of control.

 

[randy88k5]

To the OP
Matt, I have been following this thread and several others that you have started or commented on. I see that you do not feel 100% confident in the water despite your training. One of the best ways to get your diving comfort level up is to go diving. Dive more. I was actually there at your first OW training class. I know how difficult it was for you to get in and out of the gear, get to and from the water, etc... We talked about it a bit. Please don't let this sour you from diving locally. Though there isn't much to see in these nearby quarries, they are excellent for getting your skills up to par without the cost or time considerations that come with other vacations.
Our dive club is going to Hyde's Quarry in Westminster this weekend. I put a thread about it here in the MABF Trips & Marketplace sub-forum. I, or others in the club, would be happy to go diving with you to help you boost your confidence. Feel free to contact me for any more information.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

[Note -- I really don't want to take this "Accepting Responsibility" thread off topic, but since it IS about "Accepting Responsibility" I feel compelled to reply to some posts and "take responsibility" for what I wrote about teaching a Rescue class. If someone (mod?) feels this should be stricken or taken somewhere else, do so.]

Several posters (a while back) expressed what I can only call dismay at what I wrote about my vision of the PADI Rescue class. They seemed to be especially concerned about the following:



By the end of the class will they have demonstrated they can do a search for a diver on the bottom and safely surface that diver? Yes.

By the end of the class will they have demonstrated they can safely approach a diver and attempt to convince them to become bouyant on the surface? Yes.

By the end of the class will they have demonstrated they can tow a diver to a point certain and assist that diver out of the water? Yes.

By the end of the class will they have learned how to be a much safer diver and better teammate? Absolutely.

Will they be "competent" to do high stress rescues of distressed divers? Probably not -- that is why Public Safety Divers spend a lot of time learning how to do these activities. (Note, I did my DM training with our local Sheriff's Marine Unit and learned a lot about what, and how, they operate although I am NOT a PSD and have no desire to be one.)

Will they be "competent" to do a lot of those things they have demonstrated 6 - 12 months from now? Not if they don't practice them and given how much these students dive (or don't dive as the case may be), I don't have high hopes for that. My best hope is that, as a result of taking this class and seeing what can be done, they will have a memory that:

a. If they come across a "situation" that something CAN be done;

b. That they should NEVER put themselves into a position to be a second victim; and

c. That they need to think about their dives and diving to be a safe diver and good buddy.

If others train their recreational students to a much higher level, my hat's off to you.

BTW, I still contend that being able to maintain one's bouyancy control (i.e., maintaining your place in the water column) has very little, if anything, to do with a Rescue Class. I, for one, teach my students to become negative when attempting to surface a diver -- not to be neutral -- and use the victim's wing to bring both to the surface while maintaining a safe ascent rate by venting as appropriate. The only time I can think of that maintaining one's bouyancy control is necessary is during an air share and even then I'm not looking for Tech level of control.

I wasn't surprised at the response you got, but I agree with you, you can train someone to do something, but when they have to do it in a stressful situation is something else, if this someone who doesn't deal with stressful situations on a regular basis is difficult. Here's a video that maybe will help others understand.

http://youtu.be/PWKb2oI-hPs