A Weekend In Review....

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Lunchtime readin, thanks.

 

[LiteHedded]

umm james HAS swum hole in the wall before.
not that i think swimming a cave before scootering it makes much difference, but it's not his first rodeo in that system

also, i just read clare's report. seems like no big deal to me. it got silty for a bit and they exited with tons of gas? this is why we don't touch backgas

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Crap... so I have BORING lunchtime reading?

 

[ucfdiver]

Crap... so I have BORING lunchtime reading?

Either that, or some heart pounding review of an escape from death, this story describes how Claire and her team didn't give up. The team wouldn't accept death, but rather looked it in the eye and was determined to fight through a few 100ft of zero viz.

There, better?

 

[TSandM]

I think it was more like, "We swam into the cave with a bunch of things we knew were wrong, and they turned around to bite us in the butt, and it got scary, even if it wasn't."

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I hope there's some culmination of cascading failures due to crappy diving or something... I don't want to read, "the vis was blown... I was scared, because I'm afraid of the dark and I secretly don't trust my training... but I somehow continued on, eventually found visibility, slayed my weakass demon, and exited the treacherous cave.. that is... HOLE IN THE WALL!!!".

dun Dun DUN!!!

 

[PfcAJ]

15ft of vis isn't an issue on the trigger, and sometimes, it gets a bit dusty when you cave dive, regardless if you're scootering or swimming, and just because someone doesn't know the name of something doesn't mean they don't know where they are.

Claire's write up is a good example to learn from, and take those lessons with you. A proper gas plan (which Claire followed) gave them the resources to handle the situation. That's the whole point of carrying reserve gas. There are other things to critique, but bottom line is that all the problems were handled appropriately. Would I have done that dive differently? Yes. And I am lucky to have people share their experiences so that I can learn from them.

 

[TSandM]

Yes, the biggest lessons I learned from that writeup were that entering a cave with known problems is not a good idea, but conservative gas planning will get your butt out of a lot of trouble -- and a side lesson that zero viz plays nasty games with the mind.

 

[_Slacker_]

I think it is good that James recognized he needs more practice. I think part of the take-away even for Claire's story was that they scootered new to them (at least some of them) cave passage and it turned out not to be such a good idea. Partly for other reasons and partly because they did it in a challenging cave to scooter. Sure they made it out. Lots of people do things and make it out again, but it only takes once. I'm not saying James was in danger of dying or caused massive damage to the cave, but it only takes once. Seems most people blow off things they get away with but if there is a death, we'd have pages of posts on the subject. I'd rather talk about it while everyone is around, but maybe that's just me.

About not knowing the names of things, no big deal, I agree, but in the context of this sentence

...give us a very detailed briefing on which path to take that would be easy on the cave for BM scootering. Since we were new to this cave, we breathed a stage in, and turned at p3200ft....

it led me to believe they were scootering new cave/passage. Since I know James is pretty tight on many rules from reading his posts I was curious about this rule so I asked the question. Then the next sentence was wondering how/why scooter marks got way back in the cave.

and please, bringing up JJ and Casey's name is just plain funny.

 

[ucfdiver]

I think it is good that James recognized he needs more practice.

The issue becomes where? You're not going to get good at scootering low flow at Manatee Ginnie and JB because as you said, they mask any mistakes. You've got to be pretty terrible to stir up a lot in those caves, and open water experience really doesn't help when you're having issues in lower siltier areas.

I think part of the take-away even for Claire's story was that they scootered new to them (at least some of them) cave passage and it turned out not to be such a good idea. Partly for other reasons and partly because they did it in a challenging cave to scooter.

Why was it not a good idea? How do you suggest that she learn to scooter these caves? She's got solid skills (check youtube), substantial scooter experience, and was certified cave 2.

Since I know James is pretty tight on many rules from reading his posts I was curious about this rule so I asked the question. Then the next sentence was wondering how/why scooter marks got way back in the cave.

I don't buy into the swim everywhere before you scooter there policy. I didn't use snorkeling fins before swimming in a cave on jet fins. Sullivan, Wakulla, Weeki, Madison, etc would all be a lot shorter if this idea was accepted by everyone.

I was not aware that it was a "rule" to swim everywhere first. My instructor has never swam at JB, scooter only, and I know he's scootered well beyond where he's swam at Manatee. I know PFCAJ's instructor has been 15k into a 300ft deep cave that I bet he hasn't swam past 500ft into. Litehedded took a DPV workshop with an instructor who I has done the exact same thing (near 15k @300ft without swimming it). Talking to my main buddy/mentor, her c2/DPV Instructor has done the same thing but not quite to 10,000ft, and done the same at several other Leon Sinks systems. I know a few NAUI instructors who are going 5kft into a 4000ft deep cave near Tampa and not swimming them. I'd also be willing to bet nearly all NACD/NSS-CDS DPV instructors have been way back in Manatee before swimming it. If it is a rule, it must only apply to certain people.

I do buy into not skimping by not marking jumps/T's, diving deep air, diving solo, diving inadequate gear configurations and silly things like that.

I think (and was told) that the damage mark back in the cave was caused by someone who had no confidence in their DPV clutch (did they test it, EVER?) so they didn't use their hand to stall it, and failed to execute the well established procedure of getting big in the water column while tapping the prop hub to stall the scooter. This is something that I was forced to practice before ever entering the cave, spending hours in the Ginnie Spring run, and then PFCAJ and I practiced in a local lake scootering low viz as well. This is a basic skills issue, and if you don't practice those, swimming the cave before would not solve it.

and please, bringing up JJ and Casey's name is just plain funny.

Somewhat relevant, even those two stir up things in Wakulla/Chips/Turner on the GUE dvds. And I like that they don't edit it out, it shows just how difficult these sites are, and that even the arguably best cave divers of our time make similar mistakes.

BTW, so I don't have to be rude and continue to refer to you by your screen name, who am I talking to here?