A somewhat sad conversation last night

[lowviz]

Lowviz, I sure wish you could come out and visit the PNW. I think you have a bunch of misconceptions we could clear up rather quickly. ...//...

Wow, sincere thanks for that offer. -wish I could make that happen in the near future. Can't.

I really do mean it about the DIR "no hard feelings" part. Regarding "misconceptions": GUE's foundation training is just such a logical disconnect for me, I don't do "trust me" dives or training. I should pay GUE ~$2K so some kind soul will get me sorted out on their own nickel??? Not gonna happen. I really am serious about checking out training and trainers before I put down the money. This just doesn't get through my common sense filter.

How about I get things squared away in my own "wonky but effective-over-time" way and sometime in the future we dive as a DIR pair and you tell me where I suck DIR-wise. Priceless...

Very, very best,
Dennis


Edit: I see a clear impasse, I'm not into drama, so let's just let it go. No harm done.

 

[BluewaterSail]

I don't know who GUE targets, after all, they don't advertise as an agency the way the mainstream agencies do. Their students for the most part find them.

But my experience, with one particular instructor, was that I was close to hopeless when I came to him, and through large efforts from both of us, I now have a Fundies rec pass.

The "naturals" fly through any course. It's the non-naturals, like me, that find in GUE a guide that will point the way and not give up on them by accepting "good enough".

Lowviz is right though, about instructors. Just like with any agency, its important to pick the right instructor. I have had experience now with 2 GUE instructors, and one didn't do it for me, but the other did. It probably makes sense to get recommendations from past students, and talk to the instructor before signing up, like any other instructor selection process.

 

[Hepcat62]

...But it seems to me that it would be beneficial to have a campaign to motivate instructors, to get them to see a new target of producing divers with the best possible buoyancy and trim within the time constraints that now operate under, even to get them to chafe a bit under their constraints and expand, at least to where they routinely produce divers with acceptable buoyancy and trim without an add on program.

This.

At our (now closed) LDS, you'd have thought most of the instructors were allergic to meaningful continuing education for themselves. Most of them did not see the value in teaching - and more importantly IMO, demonstrating - substantially better buoyancy/trim/midwater capacity. I had an instructor flat out tell me that it was quite reasonable for a diver to "find a sandy spot and kneel" when they need to clear their mask. Obviously, I disagree.

I would love for agencies like PADI to actually promote continuing education towards their instructors, and in some ways they do. The problem is that they only seem to promote continuing INSTRUCTOR training to instructors. I don't want a bunch of recreational dive instructors with no prior technical experience going somewhere for the Tec Deep Instructor fast-track. That doesn't solve ANY problems.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, you said it yourself a while back: "It truly does boil down to motivation ... if you believe something is hard, or unnecessary to learn, you won't learn it ... even if it's completely within your capability."

No one ever told me that teaching students to have really good buoyancy and trim was [-]hard[/-] impossible, I was too stupid to know that it was [-]hard[/-] impossible, and I was lucky enough to blunder into a 100 hour, semester long course format which I replicated, and low and behold, it was completely within my/our/their capability.

I don't believe that most recreational instructors think it's hard ... although I've met some who think it's unnecessary ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[dumpsterDiver]

... we're trying to work with our LDS to put together a "Peter package" for students, .

Um... not that I am some kind of marketing guru... But I know, my buddies wouldn't be too excited if I offered to show them my "peter package" on a dive boat, for example.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I know that these skills can be had by other means, a wise man told me so almost exactly one year ago in post #110: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...-no-fundies-dir-agnostics-11.html#post5891791 Too bad you aren't within driving distance, boulderjohn or NWGD. Funny, I'm looking at a PSAI Intro to Tech at this moment. Promises the same focus. I have a cave cert, but I knew that I had to either fight flow or keep moving forward to attain the required degree of control. -not good enough for me, need to demonstrate static trim and buoyancy to myself. Will then re-do cave someday, just because...

Static trim and buoyancy control is something you can teach yourself, if you're determined enough ... it just takes practice. It helps to have someone with a trained eye to observe, provide feedback, and make suggestions ... but a dive buddy with a video camera can be immensely helpful if you know what to look for. That's the value of a good instructor ... they know what to look for, and what to do to correct any issues. But the fact remains that the student ultimately does all the work.

A pity you don't live out here ... yesterday I helped a guy with four post OW dives and two prior dives in a drysuit learn to hold a stop completely motionless in 20 feet of water ... did that on the first dive of our workshop. Today we'll work on the same exercise far enough off the bottom to not have any visual references. It's like learning to ride a bicycle ... you don't need a class to learn this, you need to show your body what it feels like, and build off of small successes through repetition.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added May 20th, 2012 at 04:36 AM ----------

If GUE targeted the "better students", they would never have had anything to do with me. Thank goodness, they did; I have struggled mightily with every GUE class I've taken, except Cave 1 (which wasn't that hard because I had taken another agency's equivalent class first) but I have never, ever regretted throwing myself at their bar, even if I have trouble reaching it. At least I know what's possible, and what I need to keep trying to achieve.

"Better students" aren't defined by natural ability ... not in this business ... they're defined by motivation and the amount of effort they're willing to put into learning. In that respect, GUE was made for people like you. I recognized that about you long before you ever signed up for a Fundies class.

Therein lies one of the popular misconceptions about Fundies ... not everyone comes out of the class looking like a rock star. Some people have to go off and work really hard on learning to apply the skills the class is designed to teach them. For some ... like me ... that process can take a while ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added May 20th, 2012 at 04:39 AM ----------

I would love for agencies like PADI to actually promote continuing education towards their instructors, and in some ways they do. The problem is that they only seem to promote continuing INSTRUCTOR training to instructors. I don't want a bunch of recreational dive instructors with no prior technical experience going somewhere for the Tec Deep Instructor fast-track. That doesn't solve ANY problems.

... in fact, it creates some. And pictures I've seen of people in a tech class kneeling in a circle don't form any encouraging images about what such instructors will be teaching ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Perhaps I'm naive, but I suspect that were I to stock a shop with just BP/Ws, no BCDs, only rent BP/Ws and have all my staff using BP/Ws I would sell as many of them as I had BCDs previously.

You may be right. But my experience with shops that are just getting by with the marketing philosophy they have used for decades are very unlikely to abandon it completely and go to a marketing philosophy that has never been proven to work. The threat of bankruptcy is a great deterrent.

 

[TSandM]

Lowviz, believe it or not, I totally agree with you! Throwing $2K at an unknown instructor in hopes of getting something worth the money is not really a good idea, even with GUE. I did that with C2, and it was a disaster. The training is well worth the money, if you get an instructor who works for you, but nobody, not even GUE ( ) is ever going to do away with the influence of personalities and styles on teaching and learning!

 

[boulderjohn]

Lowviz, believe it or not, I totally agree with you! Throwing $2K at an unknown instructor in hopes of getting something worth the money is not really a good idea, even with GUE. I did that with C2, and it was a disaster. The training is well worth the money, if you get an instructor who works for you, but nobody, not even GUE ( ) is ever going to do away with the influence of personalities and styles on teaching and learning!

I think there is also a difference in agency philosophy that comes into play. I will describe that difference in somewhat exaggerated terms (so don't nitpick!) to underline the difference.

Philosophy One: Train the student to a degree approaching expert status in a long and expensive class, withholding all certification until the student displays that high degree of skill. If the student fails to demonstrate that level of skill at the end of the class, then the student must take the class over again.

Philosophy Two: Train the student to the level of being a safe and effective, but not expert diver, leaving it up to the student to achieve that greater level of expertise during subsequent experience. If the diver does not achieve the required level at the end of the class, the student can work with the instructor to complete the deficient skills.

 

[lowviz]

...//... That's the value of a good instructor ... they know what to look for, and what to do to correct any issues. ...//...

That's exactly what I look for in an instructor, well stated.

...//... But the fact remains that the student ultimately does all the work. ...//...

Yes, haven't found a way around that yet...



@ Lynne: Sounds like it would be fun to dive with you guys!