A somewhat sad conversation last night

[TartanFrog]

Along the lines of the original posting, I was also put off by the elitist and arrogant attitudes of some of the postings I read when I first became a diver and a member of this board. Each of the sub-groups had/have their own standards (opinions?) of what constitutes the absolute correct equipment, configuration and diving approach. So yeah, it can make us poor new divers that don't yet subscribe to the approach feel pretty intimidated and irritated when we ask another "stupid" equipment or diving question and we get slammed and flamed. So we quickly generalize that all of those people are jerks or worse. I also see that almost every time I walk into a dive shop, and I go into several in my area. One or more of the instructors or DMs or salespeople have very precise opinions on what is the right way to do something and the ONLY equipment that should be used. That includes everything from which clip you use to attach something to which camera to use and how to hold it. Is that wrong? Depends! In their place, opinions are a very valuable thing.

But before all of you flame all over me I will say that this happens in virtually every hobby, sport, practice and vocation that we will come across. Virtually anything we might choose to do will have its share of zealots that have drunk the kool-aid of some particular philosophy and will preach it to everyone. Just remember that us NOOBs are asking questions from all of you very experienced divers because we do not know. We aren't stupid we just haven't been diving as long and the insight of divers who have been there can be very helpful when it is in response to the original question.

 

[txaggie08]

I see two distinct DIR groups in the dive world.

One group is a set of very knowledgeable divers who choose to do things in a particular way because they feel it's a good way to do things. They're happy to share what they know, but are fairly stubborn about being right, which is fine......if you're not willing to defend it, you don't believe it anyway.

The other likes the name "doing it right". They like the attention, and the "cool" gear configurations. They have limited to no knowledge of the system, but use the uniformity of the gear setup as a way to say "I'm DIR". The rest is cut and paste from wikipedea. The end to be arrogant, elitist assholes as well.

Unfortunately, the latter is MUCH more loudmouth and obnoxious than the former.

What you end up with is the loud mouths and trolls pissing everyone off, then you get into the deeper, more passionate discussions where vocabulary levels rise and scientific data, instead of just anecdotal evidence starts coming out, and the whole DIR community gets lumped together.
I'm not DIR either btw, so don't start that...

 

[Simon-]

I have to say, I haven't had much dealings with DIR/GUE/UTD divers, however, the dealings I have had have sadly been negative.

Typical comment from a GUE diver when we discussing any possible benefits I woud get from taking a Fundies course (which he was adamant I should take), ignoring any experience and levels of training I have already undertaken, was "you should get some proper education". The tragedy was, it wasn't said tongue in cheek, but extremely vehemently.

A few bad apples do ruin the cart.

For me, it probably isn't a route I would be overly keen to go along. I like flexibility in my kit, I change things to suit the actual diving I will be doing. I don't believe there is a perfect one configuration fits all.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Where your simile breaks down is where the analysis of the religionists who decry atheism as "another religion" breaks down. I do not preach one approach, I do no suggest a single solution, I do not limit options to a small box that you can reach into and, maybe, most of the time, pull a passable solution out.

I think you can be very preachy and one-approach oriented at times. For example, in a post you made just yesterday in another thread ...

It is mainly smoke and mirrors, but it depends on who you are:

• The mechanically savvy, well connected diver, travels with a set of spare parts and most of the tools required to do just about any repair. For this diver the "local service" argument is complete nonsense.
• The mechanically savvy, poorly connected diver, also travels with most of the tools required to do most repairs. But, getting the repair parts might be a challenge for this diver, so fortunately, there are companies like HOG to deal with this. For this diver, also, the "local service" argument is also complete nonsense.
• The mechanically challenged, poorly connected diver has it harder, but again, fortunately, there are companies like HOG, who make both the training and parts necessary to deal with this available. For this diver, also, the "local service" argument, if looked are honestly, is not real.
• So, who is left? The mechanically challenged, poorly connected diver, who neither wants to be able to fix his own gear nor wants to travel with the tools and parts that might be required. I'd suggest that these folks travel with an extra first and second stage and SPG, and be prepared to rent if need be. Face it, folks in the last category have little or no business traveling where the diving infrastructure is so weak that finding a good loaner or rental might be a problem. So, once again, even for this diver, the "local service" argument is specious.

That sounds pretty one-approach oriented to me, Thal. It also sounds as though you consider everyone who doesn't choose to work on their own regs as "mechanically challenged, poorly connected divers". That's pretty condescending ... and doesn't take into consideration that there are other options available. And saying that folks who lack this training have no business travelling to particular types of dive sites is exactly the type of elitism that many here have claimed turns them off to that other "religion" ... I wonder if they find your message any more appealing ...

I agree that some things, like trim and buoyancy control are critical central issues, but then we (Scripps) have been preaching that since we brought scuba to the USA, those, and a whole lot more, are concepts that we developed and have lived by since the early 1950s, DIR does not own them nor did it originate them, it only claimed them with the inference that there are only two ways to dive, the DIR way and the stroke way, an approach that was adopted more out of ignorance than knowledge and self-awareness.

Preach on, Reverend Thal ... but I read this as saying that "DIR doesn't worship the one true god ... Scripps does."

But, in fact, the "gods" of trim and buoyancy control are critical central issues to ALL forms of dive training ... if the training is implemented in the manner in which it was intended to be taught.

While I find LOTR references rather a stretch ... do you think that, perhaps, Gandolph knew many, many, things that Aragorn did not? While Aragorn had but one or two solutions to all problems, Gandolph had many, some of which were better than others depending on the moment, all of which were better than Aragorn's?

Indeed I do ... but while you may have knowledge of many solutions, you are only offering as valid the ones that work best for you ... someone who might choose other solutions you refer to using terms like "mechanically challenged".

You can be the most knowledgeable person in the world and still come across as an elitist ... that's what puts some folks off to the DIR methodology ... not the merits of the message, but the manner in which it's presented. You often do the same thing ... and no matter how valid your point, it gets lost in the presentation ... exactly as theirs does.

On the Internet, strongly-worded opinions usually do ... whatever their source ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lamont]

I see two distinct DIR groups in the dive world.

Uhm, I just spent my whole 7 day vacation logging around 16 hours of bottom time in cave, and we just dove the whole time, and didn't really have to think about gear or procedures, which is more to the point. For all of thal's criticism about how its its narrow minded, it worked just fine for what I did, and works fine for just about everything that I do back home in puget sound, for around the past 8 years.

<---- I tend to get that expression on my face reading thal's long missives about his mask because it just doesn't apply to my life anywhere outside of online on scubaboard.

You want to know something the system doesn't work fine for? They do dives up here where the kids get to watch divers on the bottom show them sea life and in order to have comms to the ship, the diver needs to be in a FFM (and my dive buddy has logged hundreds and hundreds of these dives). Can't do that dive DIR. That is a *much* more solid example than any edge condition that Thal has come up with. That's okay, and thats not a contrived example to try to win an argument on the internet, that's just a dive with a goal that is outside the bounds of what most recreational diving is trying to accomplish. Thing is that we don't argue online trying to change DIR to encompass FFMs while yapping at kids underwater, its just not something that a GUE gear config is appropriate for, and we move on and use GUE for the remaining majority of diving where it works.

 

[bluejaykaren]

I think DIR gets off on the wrong foot right from the get go with their name. Doing it Right implies that you are doing it wrong if you do not use their concepts and gear. Even though they do not know you or how you dive, you are doing it wrong.The name itself portrays arrogancy. If I saw a diver doing something wrong I wouldn't expect good results if I walked over and shouted "Hey, you are doing that wrong!!". I personally would be a little nicer about it in the hope of having a productful conversation instead of them mumbling under there breath about what a....... I am. It really doesn't matter how right you are if people are turned off by your arrogancy. From what little exposure I have with DIR, I have watched some videos only, it seems to me that it just might be the best way to dive so it is a shame if people get turned off before having a chance to try it. First impressions go very far and you only have one chance at it. I would try it just because of people like TSandM because I can tell she really cares about people becoming better and safer divers. I would have been drawn to them if their name had been Doing it Safer.

 

[johnkendall]

I think DIR gets off on the wrong foot right from the get go with their name. Doing it Right implies that you are doing it wrong if you do not use their concepts and gear. Even though they do not know you or how you dive, you are doing it wrong.The name itself portrays arrogancy. If I saw a diver doing something wrong I wouldn't expect good results if I walked over and shouted "Hey, you are doing that wrong!!". I personally would be a little nicer about it in the hope of having a productful conversation instead of them mumbling under there breath about what a....... I am. It really doesn't matter how right you are if people are turned off by your arrogancy. From what little exposure I have with DIR, I have watched some videos only, it seems to me that it just might be the best way to dive so it is a shame if people get turned off before having a chance to try it. First impressions go very far and you only have one chance at it. I would try it just because of people like TSandM because I can tell she really cares about people becoming better and safer divers. I would have been drawn to them if their name had been Doing it Safer.

It is interesting how this argument still keeps doing the rounds. Do you feel the same about "Dive Rite"?
Just wondering ...

Thanks
John

 

[PfcAJ]

Doing it safer? So everyone else is doing it less safe?

Is this really a big deal to folks?

At risk of sounding like an elitist, arrogant, unfriendly, a-hole, who gives a damn? Its scuba diving....

 

[gcarter]

It is interesting how this argument still keeps doing the rounds. Do you feel the same about "Dive Rite"?
Just wondering ...

Thanks
John

Doing it safer? So everyone else is doing it less safe?

Is this really a big deal to folks?

At risk of sounding like an elitist, arrogant, unfriendly, a-hole, who gives a damn? Its scuba diving....

IMO it is probably more often rationalization of an already decided opinion that may in fact have a reasonable basis, but this is easily picked up and thrown into the mix in the mistaken belief that it bolsters the position.

 

[Doc Harry]

Well, Harry, maybe GUE is doing something right?

Perhaps... Depends on whether the instructor decided to stop teaching GUE-F or whether GUE made him stop pissing off students.

Either way, when GUE sends me a check for $2,000 to cover the costs of my wasted trips to Florida for the GUE-F course, then I might consider trying GUE again. I admire the GUE philosophy, and strive to attain their standards. Too bad the GUE folks behave so badly.