A deceptively easy way to die

[spoolin01]

Video... GOOOOD. Abusive pedantery....BAAAAD.

Never could count to one.

 

[kr2y5]

Video... GOOOOD. Abusive pedantery....BAAAAD. Never could count to one.

Sorry, what do you mean by abusive pedantery?

 

[spoolin01]

Playing the death card thinking it wins every debate. Bringing it up at every conceivable turn, lest anyone forget, because any other approach would be sugar-coating.

But the point of my post that started much of this wasn't solely about that endearing SB idiom, it was because I wondered whether there could possible be any reason to consider tempering such fun in the Basic forum, in order to not scare away newbs (not to mention making room for thoughtful discussion). Turns out not.

In fairness, maybe I didn't make that as clear as I could. Don't think it would have mattered much.

 

[kr2y5]

Thanks. So, if I understand correctly, you feel that there is so much talk about fatalities in the basic forum, that it scares away divers from diving. You perceive that as a cost, and you feel that the benefit of this video does not justify the cost. Is that right?

Assuming yes, I guess the part I do do not understand is how you measure the cost. Are you aware of many cases where people have been discouraged from diving as a result?

I only have one data point. I had a co-worker who got interested in scuba diving after many of our lunch conversations. He was a dry caver, and mentioned that diving in caves would be exciting. As soon as I heard that, I forwarded him this very video. He was not at all discouraged (to be honest, I worried a bit he did not take it seriously enough). He went on to get certified.

So, that's my story. What are your experiences?

 

[spoolin01]

See, this is the internet. I said the video was good in direct response, and two posts later, that's gone. But that aside, you've captured the gist of my concern: is there a trade-off between the negative tenor of messaging and forum-based discussion/instruction and the reaction of divers coming to the Basic forum. I started on the forum with something over a hundred dives, mostly San Fran and SoCal coastal diving, mostly solo (hunting lobster and fish) with buddies, and absolutely loved diving, even here. After a few weeks on the forum I was struck by how negative the tone so often was, how identifiable that was with certain members, how contemptuous so many of the self-professed experts were, and how wholely inadequate the specific elaboration of risk was. More like scare-mongering than honest discussion. Not all threads or posts of course. Am I the only one who reacts that way?

Is dry caving no prep at all for cave diving? He doesn't know what he doesn't know?

Anyway, I've been in caves hundreds of times, if by caves you mean those holes in the rocks in Hawaii, and if by "in" you mean within free-swimming distance of the mouth, but I know you do because we're told that emphatically (see #137 above, or any of hundreds of other posts throughout this thread and the archives). And the point as well is, this is the way every topic of risk is handled here (by many). Do you find that approach helpful? insulting? patronizing? Do you accept that you are not worthy of better, because your life is at stake and soto concede any capability on your part to handle nuance would be a dis-service to the role of protector/policer?

I'm only OW certified, well Rescue recently also, and not knowing what I don't know, I'm either the luckiest man in the world, or the most preternaturally insightful, or perhaps simply a well-trained cave-certified diver reincarnated. Or there's more nuance to it than that. But maybe like the AGW warrior-scientists said, lying to us is a small price to pay for saving the world.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I have said repeatedly that diving is not safe, can not be totally safe but is worth the risks. I have said that adults have the right to make decisions about if a given dive is "safe enough" to justify doing it. People need to make informed choices and it is my belief that showing that video allows more information for them to make those choices. I actually have no particular dog in this fight believe it or not.

I know cave divers have a vested interest in making sure that people don't die in caves. They are the ones who have to get the bodies out, they are the ones who may be denied access to the cave system in the event of deaths. That doesn't impact me in any way personally.

All I care is that people have adequate information to make their choices. I care that people are safe and don't die diving. In the end it will be their actions and choices that will hasten their demise whether is be diving, driving or medical issues. We can't stop the foolhardy from being foolhardy but we can do a better job of informing the rest. I just don't think the video is all that confronting or sensationalized or scary. If that video really is all it take to scare someone off diving I don't see that as a big deal.

I don't see diving as all that elitist personally. I also agree that we get too many refrains of you must/must not/must have/must not have whatever or your gonna die! That doesn't mean that we should candy coat things either. I think we need a balance and you know what.. the voices on either side of the your gonna die, your not gonna die that easily help create that balance.

What I do believe is that a well trained and well informed diver is a lot less likely to die diving.

 

[widget]

I have said repeatedly that diving is not safe, can not be totally safe but is worth the risks. I have said that adults have the right to make decisions about if a given dive is "safe enough" to justify doing it. People need to make informed choices and it is my belief that showing that video allows more information for them to make those choices. I actually have no particular dog in this fight believe it or not.

I know cave divers have a vested interest in making sure that people don't die in caves. They are the ones who have to get the bodies out, they are the ones who may be denied access to the cave system in the event of deaths. That doesn't impact me in any way personally.

All I care is that people have adequate information to make their choices. I care that people are safe and don't die diving. In the end it will be their actions and choices that will hasten their demise whether is be diving, driving or medical issues. We can't stop the foolhardy from being foolhardy but we can do a better job of informing the rest. I just don't think the video is all that confronting or sensationalized or scary. If that video really is all it take to scare someone off diving I don't see that as a big deal.

I don't see diving as all that elitist personally. I also agree that we get too many refrains of you must/must not/must have/must not have whatever or your gonna die! That doesn't mean that we should candy coat things either. I think we need a balance and you know what.. the voices on either side of the your gonna die, your not gonna die that easily help create that balance.

What I do believe is that a well trained and well informed diver is a lot less likely to die diving.

I like this post. Balanced and levelheaded, diving isnt elitist, not by a long shot, but there are risks, granted, mostly we manage them, just like we manage every other risk in our day.

In any endevour we look at the risk and the reward, sometimes we just reconcile with the risk and go for it, sometimes it ends badly, but there is nothing you or I or anybody else can do about it.

Posturing and drama on a scuba forum is not going to change this.

 

[pedro_rj]

You know what NWGratefuldiver, I dont come here a lot, because in general I find its a lot of hot air and testosterone been pumped around,..... but, by and large I have always considered your posts as one of the few which were levelheaded and well thought out, I am rather surprised you have succumbed to the general Scubaboard malaise of "only I can do this well, so best you dont dive, you may die" attitude.

The whole debate is heating up, both you and Bob are usually among the "zen-est"

I guess any topic related to deaths will have the potential to touch deeply those who lost someone dear while diving. I just hope an otherwise excellent and informative thread will not derail because of that. For instance, I don't recall a single post saying cave diving is perfectly fine for OW divers and yet quite a few replied as if that had been the case.

From what I read so far everyone is actually on the same page with regards to:
1) diving is a risky activity and for it to be consistently fun it has to be consistently safe
2) caves are as dangerous as it gets. Just don't go in unless trained
3) proper instruction and training are paramount to prevent accidents

The main (only?) disagreement is regarding the tone and the best way to convey these messages, which quite frankly is a rather small issue compared to the actual content...

 

[oya]

how wholely inadequate the specific elaboration of risk was.

Post #107

---------- Post added December 6th, 2015 at 02:04 AM ----------

How many of these were preventable?

Apropos of this conversation, I'll point out that Entrapment is the fourth of the known causes of fatalities above. 11 people. Not just the number 11, but 11 people with families and friends and favorite colors and birthdays are dead after having made a very poor set of decisions and becoming entrapped underwater.

You would also find in the DAN report that other high demographics of injuries/fatalities are among the following: Spearfishers. Divers with 10 years experience. Divers in California (After Florida).

Does that mean you're going to die diving because you fall into those demographics? Not automatically. But if you're not interested in why those FACTS are facts so that you can, perhaps, mitigate some of the risks causing those numbers... well then, sir, there's nothing I can do for you. Feel free to go out and potentially make the same mistakes that have caused those injuries and fatalities.

It's not simply about cave diving. It's about recognition that diving is not the chocolate covered, powdered-sugared trifle the sport is marketed as.

Diving can be safe, provided divers are cognizant of and diligently avoid the risks.
...

Has anyone even mentioned the School Sink lawsuit yet?

 

[Doppler]

See, this is the internet. I said the video was good in direct response, and two posts later, that's gone. But that aside, you've captured the gist of my concern: is there a trade-off between the negative tenor of messaging and forum-based discussion/instruction and the reaction of divers coming to the Basic forum. I started on the forum with something over a hundred dives, mostly San Fran and SoCal coastal diving, mostly solo (hunting lobster and fish) with buddies, and absolutely loved diving, even here. After a few weeks on the forum I was struck by how negative the tone so often was, how identifiable that was with certain members, how contemptuous so many of the self-professed experts were, and how wholely inadequate the specific elaboration of risk was. More like scare-mongering than honest discussion. Not all threads or posts of course. Am I the only one who reacts that way?

Is dry caving no prep at all for cave diving? He doesn't know what he doesn't know?

Anyway, I've been in caves hundreds of times, if by caves you mean those holes in the rocks in Hawaii, and if by "in" you mean within free-swimming distance of the mouth, but I know you do because we're told that emphatically (see #137 above, or any of hundreds of other posts throughout this thread and the archives). And the point as well is, this is the way every topic of risk is handled here (by many). Do you find that approach helpful? insulting? patronizing? Do you accept that you are not worthy of better, because your life is at stake and soto concede any capability on your part to handle nuance would be a dis-service to the role of protector/policer?

I'm only OW certified, well Rescue recently also, and not knowing what I don't know, I'm either the luckiest man in the world, or the most preternaturally insightful, or perhaps simply a well-trained cave-certified diver reincarnated. Or there's more nuance to it than that. But maybe like the AGW warrior-scientists said, lying to us is a small price to pay for saving the world.

You win... I have no words.