900 times more deadly than OC?

[SFLDiver3445]

Wow that's amazing. You must do a lot of dives. I have yet to see a meg solenoid fail in real life.

Same here - I've been regularly diving with a pretty good sized group of rebreather divers here in South Florida, primarily Optima and Megs, with a few Kiss rebreathers as well, for about a year now, and we've had as many as 17 rebreathers onboard at one time, however, I have yet to see someone from our group have a selanoid fail.

 

[ScubaDadMiami]

Each of the equipment failsures for which you train will eventually happen. Practice failure skills frequently, and dive your unit with this expectation. That way, you will be prepared when such an event arises. It is not a question of if but when . . . .

 

[Mr.X]

Wow that's amazing. You must do a lot of dives. I have yet to see a meg solenoid fail in real life.

Two on the Inspiration and one on the Meg. Don't you dive a Copis Meg and prior to that a Drager? No solenoids. Stuff fails on a ECCR...a crap load more than what anyone and newbies think. I carry full spares with me all the time because I don't trust these things not to crap out on me. On a recent expedition Leon offered us a spare head. Of course, we had one HammerMeg head replacement go out. Additionally, parts which are subject to movement and possible intrusion of seawater may need replacement, or failure. Time and who's using the unit is also a factor with parts. Solenoids can stick, or the plungers simply fail to actuate.

What's up -bad day? You used to have a sense of humor? This isn't Rebreatherworld - I left that forum a long time ago because of all the little snips and snipes everyone took at each other. PM me if you have a direct question. I don't want to get in a shouting match here on SB with you.


X

 

[daniel f aleman]

Always assume your rebreather is going to malfunction at any moment.

Views from one very experienced rebreather diver:

Howard Hall

 

[wedivebc]

Two on the Inspiration and one on the Meg. Don't you dive a Copis Meg and prior to that a Drager?

Nope I have about 400 dives on an apecs 2.01 meg with jaksa solenoid. I have serviced it twice since owned it but never had or even seen a meg solenoid failure. Yes I did dive a mCCR dolphin because copis was not around when I bought my meg

What's up -bad day? You used to have a sense of humor? This isn't Rebreatherworld - I left that forum a long time ago because of all the little snips and snipes everyone took at each other. PM me if you have a direct question. I don't want to get in a shouting match here on SB with you.

X

I don't view an opposing opinion as a prelude to a shouting match. I just don't agree that a failed solenoid is high risk area as far as a eCCR is involved. I think the bigger danger of eCCR is the complecency that is bred when everything is done for you automatically. For that reason mCCRs have a better safety record. Failed solenoids are rare (for most people) and easy to deal with when they do occur.

 

[Mr.X]

I don't view an opposing opinion as a prelude to a shouting match. I just don't agree that a failed solenoid is high risk area as far as a eCCR is involved. I think the bigger danger of eCCR is the complecency that is bred when everything is done for you automatically. For that reason mCCRs have a better safety record. Failed solenoids are rare (for most people) and easy to deal with when they do occur.

Statements "like you must do a lot of dives" doesn't ring of opposing opinion. More like a snarky response so often found on RB World where experts are born every 50 "real world" green blobs. So here's direct - when is "replace" the same as "fail?" I never said I had solenoid failure underwater.

I'll stop here because SB ain't RB World and I have truly appreciated your sense of humor & play in the past.

This brings me to another personal point...why am I wasting my time on the net? I've got some heavy-duty exploratory dives coming up in three days which pay money and actually test my mettle as a real diver - with real people who actually believe what I say. If anyone wants history, or my personal stories on this sector of diving from the 90's feel free to PM. I've seen a lot - many cool, and way too many close to sad. The latter make me less-than-enthusiastic about these devices on occasion.

X

 

[tflaris]

If the Risk exceeds the Reward don't dive. If the reward exceeds the risk then dive.


Dive, Dive , Dive

Get off my boat.........................

 

[TravelDive]

Rhone,
To address your question with a few numbers.
The database I've been compiling has approx 165 deaths when the diver was using or had been on a rebreather. With my first case in the early 1950's.
There have been over 600 deaths while Cave diving most of them on OC.

Also when tracking the deaths, causes on a timeline relative to training and new technology (ADVs were a big improvement) different looks and perceptions of the data are seen.

I don't track OC related deaths, but its safe to say that its a fair number and I think its safe to say there have been over 1000 since the same time frame.

Now like any statistic you have to use some sort of reference. If you take all RB divers / RB deaths and compare it to all OC divers / OC deaths then compare those two fractions one could state that RB deaths are more. But lets take a look at the OC diver base. If agencies are to be believed, then about 80% of all OC divers are "vacation" divers. Go on semi-guided tours with DMs and other lower risk type dives. But as pointed out by GillEnvy, most RB divers are doing deeper, longer dives hence higher risk environments. If your OC data set is reduced to get a more matched set of diver profiles the difference in statistical danger may be considerably less. One of the problems with these statistics is that determining the base of users is very hard especially for RBs. A few folks have tried using various methods to try to come up with a baseline of users, but at best is still an estimate/guess.

Are there a significantly higer number of people diving RBs then diving Caves? (yes there many who do both, but RB deaths in caves is still very low). Looking at that set of numbers you may note that OC diving in a risker environment (caves, wrecks etc) may be more dangerous then on an RB. But without base numbers everything is just a guess/perception.

As pointed out by several folks, RBs are not for everyone, they do not tolerate the abuse and casual care that modern OC gear can. The current state of the art of RBs is still evolving. The constant flow orifice and the training done for mCCRs does indeed appear to challenge the eCCR when looking at just the death rate. There are now two manufacturers that offer a combined system and the technology continues to evolve.

But as so well said by SFLdiver many of us think that RB diving is actually safer then OC diving when in these risker environments, or that the benefits out weigh the risks.

Being wary is a good thing when considering an RB.

All that said, I still prefer diving an RB then OC for most any dive.

An exceptionally well put together post, every single element post I agree with. The focus on Rebreather Deaths will always be there until the next bit of technology comes along or the main body of divers are using them.

RBs require a focussed mine, if your that type of person who does not mind spending more time than anyone else preparing your equipment, check the integrity of it and maintaining it, beautiful silent diving is there to be had. I can tell you, there is nothing like it. Diving lower, quieter away from the noise, closer to the marine life. It's amazing!

 

[TravelDive]

Rhone,
To address your question with a few numbers.
The database I've been compiling has approx 165 deaths when the diver was using or had been on a rebreather. With my first case in the early 1950's.
There have been over 600 deaths while Cave diving most of them on OC.

Also when tracking the deaths, causes on a timeline relative to training and new technology (ADVs were a big improvement) different looks and perceptions of the data are seen.

I don't track OC related deaths, but its safe to say that its a fair number and I think its safe to say there have been over 1000 since the same time frame.

Now like any statistic you have to use some sort of reference. If you take all RB divers / RB deaths and compare it to all OC divers / OC deaths then compare those two fractions one could state that RB deaths are more. But lets take a look at the OC diver base. If agencies are to be believed, then about 80% of all OC divers are "vacation" divers. Go on semi-guided tours with DMs and other lower risk type dives. But as pointed out by GillEnvy, most RB divers are doing deeper, longer dives hence higher risk environments. If your OC data set is reduced to get a more matched set of diver profiles the difference in statistical danger may be considerably less. One of the problems with these statistics is that determining the base of users is very hard especially for RBs. A few folks have tried using various methods to try to come up with a baseline of users, but at best is still an estimate/guess.

Are there a significantly higer number of people diving RBs then diving Caves? (yes there many who do both, but RB deaths in caves is still very low). Looking at that set of numbers you may note that OC diving in a risker environment (caves, wrecks etc) may be more dangerous then on an RB. But without base numbers everything is just a guess/perception.

As pointed out by several folks, RBs are not for everyone, they do not tolerate the abuse and casual care that modern OC gear can. The current state of the art of RBs is still evolving. The constant flow orifice and the training done for mCCRs does indeed appear to challenge the eCCR when looking at just the death rate. There are now two manufacturers that offer a combined system and the technology continues to evolve.

But as so well said by SFLdiver many of us think that RB diving is actually safer then OC diving when in these risker environments, or that the benefits out weigh the risks.

Being wary is a good thing when considering an RB.

All that said, I still prefer diving an RB then OC for most any dive.

An exceptionally well put together post, every single element I agree with. The focus on Rebreather Deaths will always be there until the next bit of technology comes along or the main body of divers are using them.

RBs require a focussed mine, if your the type of person who does not mind spending more time than anyone else preparing your equipment, checking the integrity of it and maintaining it, beautiful silent diving is there to be had. I can tell you, there is nothing like it. Diving lower, quieter away from the noise, closer to the marine life. It's amazing!

That is why I am prepared to fuss over my kit, check it, check the PP02!