90 FSW - During the checkout dives

[Wayward Son]

This bothers me. There is a local independant instructor, for PDIC. Been teaching people in this area for years.

2 guys I work with just got certified through him. They told me that they went to 90 FSW during their checkouts. My next door neighbor got certified by this guy a few years back. When I mentioned this to him, he said they did the same thing then.

I know NAUI & PADI, & prolly other orgs, limit instructors to taking students to a max of 60 FSW. I dunno what the PDIC std is, I just think that is too deep to be taking people that soon, without having a bit more real world diving under their belts.

I guess he hasn't had any serious problems doing so yet, seeing as he hasn't been sued out of existance. I just think it's too deep, too fast, IMO.

Anyone else heard of other instructors doing something like this?

 

[Scottri]

PADI limits depth to 40' on dives 1 and 2 and 60' on dives 3 and 4. I can't imagine any agency allowing 90' during OW training.

 

[miskatonic]

SSI has a limit of 60 feet. You have to do advanced diver for the 100 feet cert.

 

[O.P.]

I thought that as long as you were with an instructor, you could go up to 130 ft. I not saying this is the smartest thing to do, but it seems to me that you are better off (i.e. somewhat safer) with an instructor at 90ft than newly certified and at 60 ft with a green buddy. When I got certified, we didn't go below 30 ft and there was no way that I felt confortable to go to even 60ft with just a buddy. However on my first dive trip, I was with a couple of divemaster and an instructor. We went to 110 ft. It was clear to them that they couldn't really count on me for an efficient rescue effort if need be and they were fine with that. This trip really improve my confidence as did additional training and now I feel perfectly fine at any depth.

In a nutshell, before screaming "bloody murder", I would ask myself what is the best for the new diver, respecting some subjective rule about depth or making sure that they are confident in the water.

Additionally there are a lot of unknowns here: How many students were with the instructor? Was it only the 2 of them? How long did they stay at 90 ft? Was it due to a mistake from one of the student (lack of buyancy control) or was the dive planned that way?

 

[skybird]

All I know ( newbie as I am) that for my OW 60 ft was my limit. Now that I am taking AOW I will go deeper.

 

[mccabejc]

I think there's a couple issues here. First, I have no problem with an instructor pushing the bounds of a student's experience. That's how you learn, and how you become more confident. But that assumes a situation where the student is led by the instructor as a training exercise, NOT where the student is off with a non-instructor buddy doing the same dive.

It's the difference between experience and certification. In an advanced course you presumably train to be certified, and possibly even competent to do deep dives on your own (ie, with a similarly certified buddy). But having an instructor take you on a trip to 90ft during an OW class is not a certification, merely a good experience to stretch the student's limits a bit and build some confidence.

 

[LavaSurfer]

In a nutshell, before screaming "bloody murder", I would ask myself what is the best for the new diver, respecting some subjective rule about depth or making sure that they are confident in the water.

Additionally there are a lot of unknowns here: How many students were with the instructor? Was it only the 2 of them? How long did they stay at 90 ft? Was it due to a mistake from one of the student (lack of buyancy control) or was the dive planned that way?

I got to agree here. We only went to 40 on the first and second dive then 55 FSW for the remaining two but we also had 20 people and 4 instructors and some so-so divers that were very challenged in the skills area.

I would imagine it really comes down to the instructor and his confidence in the divers abilities. No competent instructor would take a marginal diver deep but maybe he thought they could handle it.

My instructor would probably take me as deep as I wanted to go but I was very skilled in the basics and had practiced more than anyone in the pool before I hit open water.

Like you said, "there are a lot of unknowns here"

 

[Gary D.]

It hasn't been all that many years ago when OW went to 100' or deeper. Granted it is a safety issue with the amount of training being backed off over the years.

If a student is up to it and secure enough in the water why not. A big part of depth is a frame of mind. Had you been told all your diving life that OW was 100' and AOW was 150'. would people still be freaking out at 61'? Some people can go deep right off the bat. Others shouldn't get past pool depths.

Like the speed limits. A good percentage of the population never saw 75mph limits until it was raised from 55 a few years ago. When it went back up us old timers thought nothing of it and were glad to see it back up there. But those that had never seen more than 55 were protesting. Same type of attitude.

Gary D.

 

[Wayward Son]

I'm not "screaming bloody murder", as you put it. I'm questioning the advisablity of this.

I don't know the number of students. It was more than the 2 of them, I think 5 in the class. There was no assistant.

My neighbor -was is a very close friend now- has described the guy as being into teaching it solely for the money, and also questions some of his methods/practises, including going this deep during the OW dives. FWIW, my friend is a teacher at the local college. Not a dive instructor, but he does know a few things about teaching & is extreemly technically oriented (electronics specialist, used to work for Hughes).

In fact, he told me the other day about an incident that raised another, IMO more serious, warning flag. The 1st set of OW dives they did at Morrison spring. At 1st bluch, nothing wrong with this, but for those unfamiliar, let me describe it:

There is a training platform about 15 feet down, perfect for skills demonstration. Then there is a baisn where the spring feeds, it's maybe 40 feet or so to the bottom of this where there is a hole going down into a large cavern.

This is a fairly tight constriction. The flow is fairly strong at this opening & I doubt seriously that 2 divers would fit through at the same time. Once inside, the cavern is large & the bottom is sand, a bit over 90 feet down. There is only the one way in & out, that hole.

This instructor offered to take this new class -not one or 2 at a time, but the entire class of not yet certified divers, down into this cavern. He was not teaching them any cavern skills, just basic OW skills, and was willing to take them into an overhead environment. There was no assistant.

My friend refused. He knew that he did not know enough to handle anything if it went wrong inside that hole & decided to not take the chance, he wanted a clear path to the surface. Some of the other students did take him up on it & went.

This, combined with multiple reports of taking people deep during their 1st real OW dives, just has me wondering a bit about what risks the guy is taking. There may well be more that no one has thought to mention. The guys at work didn't think anything odd, but then, they were being taught for the 1st time. They have no point of reference, no idea of what is or isn't done.

I'm not familiar with PDIC, so I dunno what stds they have. I can't imagine NAUI, PADI or SSI approving taking OW students, during their 1st 2 checkout dives, into an overhead environment such as this one, but I could be wrong about that. Maybe PDIC is fine with all of this, too.

 

[garyfotodiver]

Why do we continue to argue over this? I just looked in the RSTS Minimum Course Content for Open Water Scuba Certification (1 January 2001). In section 5.2.3 it states that "All dives prior to open water certification shall be conducted during daylight hours at depths between 15 and 60 feet (5 to 18 metres)." There was no mention anywhere in the standard of a maximum depth for certified OW divers.

The agencies present recommendations for depth limits. I surmise they are for legal reasons, but I do not know.

I've written this before: On her third dive, my 12 year-old daughter went to 72 fsw with her instructor. Big deal.