3 Divers lost on the Spiegel Grove

[SeaKat]

So very sorry to hear about this.

I was just curious, the safety diver nearly ran out of air before coming to the surface. I'm not a tech diver and I was just wondering about some of the following:

What procedures should a safety diver follow and what equipment should they have to be of use to his/her fellow divers inside the wreck?

At what point and how do they raise an alarm to the surface, supposedly in time to help their fellow divers?

What kind of support should be available on the surface for penetration wreck or cave diving? If not by the dive operator, then by whom?

Would communication equipment have helped in situations like this? Should it be required for tech diving?

Karen

Karen....my comments following are in no way intended to suggest that the divers lost, sadly, were negligent in doing these things. I am merely answering your question as best I can. As an PADI Divemaster, Master SCUBA Diver, I also have an NSS Cavern Certification. The skills learned in cavern/cave diving are useful in wreck penetration. For example, cavers carry two reels. In the Grove, there are lines already attached in some areas for divers to follow (analogous to the caver's primary reel). However, a caver would have a spare reel to attach TO that line should he or she venture away from it (or lose sight of it), to find one's way back to the primary. (I am NOT encouraging DEEPER PENETRATION without signficant caving/wreck penetration experience, however).
Safety diver would have extra air available. And all divers would carry, at the very least, redundant systems. doubles, regs, lights, reels, etc. And cavers also learn a modified "frog kick" with knees bent more or less at a ninety degree angle, fins above, to avoid kicking up silt.
The penetrating divers would use the rule of thirds: divide the amount of air left in your tank at the OUTSET of the penetration by 3: go in on 1/3, return on 1/3, leaving 1/3 for emergencies. That might change, of course, depending upon the depth from the surface. I'm assuming extra air available at depth. But the "rule of thirds" is useful on any dive, quite frankly.

I do not know what these lost divers did, nor am I presuming anything. I am, however, suggesting that those of us who penetrate wrecks consider at least, a cavern certification (best cavern/cave training in Florida: I got mine at Birds' Underwater/Homosassa Springs). There are four levels, with Cavern the first and most basic. But the skills apply readily to open water diving, and are especially useful in wreck penetration. I chose not to continue with higher levels of cave training, merely because I prefer open water. But the cross-over skills are quite useful, and potentially lifesaving.
The Plan, of course, for both Safety Diver and penetration divers should be drawn up before descent, and followed.
Deviations in such things can be, sadly, deadly.

My condolences to the families of these men. I got most of my training in the Northeast, cold: murky water. Excellent training. But conditions are different no matter where one goes. And some NY/NJ/CT diver friends of mine are among the best divers I know. However, conditions change. Situational preparedeness is part of one's dive plan.
Always should be.
No matter where one dives.

I do hope we can all learn from this sad experience. There is always something to be learned. No matter how much experience and how many dives we have logged.

SeaKat

 

[MikeFerrara]

OK....devil's advocate here...and no, I am not arguing just to argue...grrr

what if the divers were diving a plan that led them to an exit that on a previous dive TRIP was cut open, but had since been re-sealed / re-locked close?

Just a question. One guy made it out gasping for air like a mad dash....possibly stirring up silt and trapping the two behind. Although, whether he left them behind or not, they still probably would have perished.

The sad thing is that they are dead and cannot defend themselves and argue back that, "no, we were not being idots...we just made an accidental error in judgement and assumptions".

Welding all passageways with a plate and 1 inch diameter flow holes is a great idea,but all entrances to the "off limits areas" needs to be welded so no one cuts one of the chains again.

I can only answer this from a cave perspective which should answer the question in a general way though it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with this accident.

When we plan to exit somplace other than where we entered, we don't assume the exit point is open or that we can make it on the gas we have. We use two dives to do the traverse. On the first dive we enter one of the entrances. When we reach our turn pressure (or other limit) we mark the line. On the second dive we enter from the other way. If we reach OUR marker before reaching our turn pressure (or other limit), we then continue to the plannes exit point.

The only lagit exception is when we can make the exit before reaching our turn pressure. In that case, we still have enough gas to turn and exit the way we came in if need be. A not so lagit exception is when someone does a circuit or traverse as a trust-me dive. Your buddy says "Don't worry. I do this traverse all the time. We have plenty of gas" and you follow without setting the dive up.

Caves are "usually pretty stable and an entrance/exit that was accessible las year or last month is probably accessible but I don't assume that to be true and set up all circuits or traverses as though it was the first time. In a wreck, which can be a far more dynamic environment, I absolutely wouldn't make any assumptions.

Keep in mind that even after setting up the dive and marking the line, it's still possible to screw up...take a wrong turn or get lost off the line somehow. Straightening that out is one possible use of your reserve gas. The lower the reserve, the less time you have to figure things out.

In theory, you should always have a minimum of 1/3 of your gas available for solving problems. However, that's a minimum and complex dives get more. Also 1/3 of a little bit is less than a little bit. I've never heard of anyone getting killed because they had too much gas.

I have no idea how accurate the reports on this accident are but personally, I wouldn't go very far into any overhead on a single 80. I don't care to do OW 130 ft dives on a single 80 and at 130, I'm not going inside anything without more gas and redundancy.

In caves, we commonly leave gas bottles on the line. We're either coming back the same way or we aren't coming back at all so we lighten the load. In OW or in wrecks I always carry ALL my gas just because there is a greater chance of having to go back some other way. I've fit through some pretty tight areas wearing double 104's and carrying two or more al80's. Personally, I'd gladly give up the chance to see part of the wreck before giving up my gas. I get paid the same (nothing) either way.

 

[Moby Dick]

When all is said and done and the official report is published. I pray we all learn something from these deaths what ever that may be,spare tanks,rec reels etc.
I send my condolences to all involved and I pray for the survivor.What a weight he must be bearing.

 

[MikeFerrara]

So very sorry to hear about this.

I was just curious, the safety diver nearly ran out of air before coming to the surface. I'm not a tech diver and I was just wondering about some of the following:

What procedures should a safety diver follow and what equipment should they have to be of use to his/her fellow divers inside the wreck?

At what point and how do they raise an alarm to the surface, supposedly in time to help their fellow divers?

What kind of support should be available on the surface for penetration wreck or cave diving? If not by the dive operator, then by whom?

There are lots of ways of using surface or in-water support. How you might do it, depnds on lots of things but we certainly do lots of cave diving with no in-water support. For most recreational cave dives we (the dive team) are pretty much on our own. For most recreational wreck dives, the boat crew is our only support but we're on our own until we get back to the boat.

Would communication equipment have helped in situations like this? Should it be required for tech diving?

Most wireless UW coms are ultrasonic. Ultrasonics won't transmit through a physical barrier like a wreck wall, cave wall or even a thick cloud of silt. Likewise, it may not transmit through a thermocline or two so even if you're in the open you may not be able to communicate with the surface. Additionally mosty communications equipment requires the use of a full face mask which can introduce a whole different set of equipment configuration issues...namely gas switching. Lots of technical dives require a large number of gas switches. Getting the wrong gas at the wrong time gas probably killed more technical divers than anything so we want gas switch procedures to be as close to foolproof as they can be. I, personally, don't want any part of switch blocks or any of that nonsense. A full face mask can also complicate air sharing procedure and equipment and that's something else that I don't want to fool with.

commercial diving where the diver is teathered to the surface, breathing surface supplied gas and using hard wired communications is a whole different animal. The diver mostly just does the work while the dive is monitored and managed by someone on the surface. They know where the diver is and might be able to get to him/her if they needed help. By contrast, on a technical recreational cave or wreck dive there's a really good chance that by the time anyone on the surface could get to you, it would be WAY too late anyway. We could be a long way into a cave. If I'm lost off the line in a cave and running low on gas, what can someone on the surface going to do about it? If I'm lost in a complex system, how would they find me in time? Even if I could talk to them, I can't tell them where I am because I'm lost. LOL

No, communications shouldn't be required. Nothing should be required. We do this for fun and I don't want anyone telling me what's fun and what isn't. In commercial diving, you have OSHA and the boss to keep happy. I go diving to get away from OSHA and the boss.

 

[MikeFerrara]

When all is said and done and the official report is published. I pray we all learn something from these deaths what ever that may be,spare tanks,rec reels etc.
I send my condolences to all involved and I pray for the survivor.What a weight he must be bearing.

In the case of most dive accidents there is no official report other than a ruling of "accidental or not" by law enforcement. There is no body responsible for analyzing accidents as OSHA (or someone) may in the case of accidents in the workplace. Usually whatever we get in the few days following an accident on the discussion boards (new reports, maybe a few comments by people who knew those envolved or might have been in the general area and our own speculation) is all there is.

 

[Missdirected]

Here's a little more info that I haven't seen on here quite yet....the very last paragraph is some of the best reporting I've seen from the media!

http://cbs4.com/local/local_story_077135945.html

New Information On Deadly Dive In Key Largo

At one point the diver who survived said he grabbed the hand of one of the others, in an attempt to get him to follow. That was the last he saw of his friends.

(CBS4) KEY LARGO New details are emerging about the last hours for three divers who died Friday inside a shipwreck off Key Largo.

The survivor of the quartet, 52-year old Howard Spialter, was initially thought to have been stationed outside the entrance to the wreck. But Monroe County Sheriff’s detective Mark Coleman says after speaking with Spialter, they’ve learned he actually entered the wreck with the other divers.

Spialter reportedly told investigators once inside the wreck of the Spiegel Grove they weren't unsure of which way to go, but Spialter said he thought he knew the right direction. As he ran low on air in his dive tanks, Spialter said he tried to tell the others which way to go, but they wouldn't listen.

"He went one way and they went the other," said Coleman. "He lived because he went the right way and got out."

Spialter told the detective at one point he grabbed the hand of one of the others, in an attempt to get him to follow. That was the last he saw of his friends.

Two other divers, from another dive boat stationed on the wreck, found 51-year old Kevin Coughlin struggling for air and pulled him to the surface. He died Friday at the hospital.

"At some point, Coughlin also started in the right direction to get out, but he didn't make it. We don't know what happened with him," said Coleman. "Either he ran out of air before he got out, or he may have embolized in a section of the wreck where there is a long, steep ascent on the way out. We just don't know. Maybe the autopsy will be able to answer some of those questions, but we may never know the whole story."

Autopsies of the three victims are scheduled today and tomorrow by the Monroe County Medical Examiner's Office.

The Monroe County Sheriff’s department said their investigation could take weeks. There are still more people to interview, equipment to examine, and autopsy results to take into consideration. Coleman said an investigation such as this one cannot be concluded in a day or even two. It takes time, and information is always in flux.

"Sometimes, in the confusion of the initial stages of a case like this, information is released that may not turn out to be exactly what happened. In high profile cases, the media demands information quickly and continuously. We try to comply with their demands, even though we would prefer to wait and make sure all the t's are crossed and the i's dotted," said Deputy Becky Herrin, Public Information Officer for the Monroe County Sheriff's Office.

A friend of Spialter's posted much the same thing early on in this thread. This friend said he had personally spoke to Spialter. Spialter told this person that what had been printed was not representative of the facts he gave the officer. this person went on to give the accounting as he heard it from Spialter himself.

I looked and looked yesterday for this man's post and could not find it. I will look again.

Glad, to see we are back to interesting conversation today.

 

[cudachaser]

This is from the Miami Herald & Florida Today:

THE MIAMI HERALD
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KEY LARGO -- The lone survivor of a deadly diving accident in the Florida Keys has given investigators details of how the tragedy unfolded, clues that may help unravel the mystery of how three of his experienced diving buddies died.

Contrary to previous reports, authorities said Sunday that Howard Spialter told them he did not remain outside the sunken Navy ship. Instead, he said he also ventured into the bowels 135-feet deep -- and even tried to save his best friend, but failed because he wouldn't follow him.

Spialter's story may help investigators piece together details of how three divers with decades of experience died during Friday's fateful exploration into a pitch-black pump room of a massive Navy ship sunk six miles off the shore of Key Largo. The dead are Kevin Coughlin, 51, from Chatham Borough, N.J., and Scott Stanley, 55, and Jonathan Walsweer, 38, both of Westfield, N.J.

Spialter, 52, also from Westfield, surfaced safely when his air supply ran low.

Investigators and a diving friend provided this account, based on what Spialter told them:

In the bowels of the ship, all four divers became lost.

Their air supply was running out. Visibility was nil after silt obscured their two strobe lights.

They were forced into a race against time: find their way out of the murky maze or die.

Spialter told Detective Mark Coleman of the Monroe County Sheriff's Office that he thought he knew the right way to safety.

But when Spialter tried to get Coughlin, Stanley and Walsweer to follow, they didn't.

''He went one way and they went the other,'' Coleman said in his report. ``He lived because he went the right way and got out.''

Tom Doherty, former owner of Treasure Cove Dive Shop in Westfield, N.J., where the four friends met, said he talked with a very shaken Spialter on Sunday. Spialter told him he had tried to grab the hand of Stanley, his best friend, to lead him out.

''But Howard told me Scott wouldn't hang on,'' Doherty said. ``Scott was probably the strongest diver -- most experienced. He left to try to help the divers downstream from him. That was the last Howard saw of Scott.''

Coleman's investigation concluded that at some point Coughlin also started in the right direction. The maze to safety required navigating 75 feet through a tight alleyway, and then up a 45-foot narrow shaft to a ship's opening 90 feet below the surface.

Coughlin had made it out of the pump room in the lowest level, where the bodies of Stanley and Walsweer were retrieved during a risky recovery effort Saturday.

Two dive instructors found Coughlin in distress and helped him to the surface. He was pronounced dead at a local hospital.

''Either he ran out of air before he got out, or he may have [suffered an embolism] in a section of the wreck where this is a long, steep ascent on the way out,'' Coleman said. ``We just don't know. Maybe the autopsy will be able to answer some of the questions. But we may never know the whole story.''

The Monroe County Medical Examiner began autopsies of the three victims Sunday and is expected to finish them today. Coleman also is investigating if any of the divers' equipment malfunctioned.

Doherty said that with one air tank each the divers could only be at 135 feet for about 20 minutes.

Spialter told investigators that the group didn't use lines to guide the way out in poor visibility.

Capt. Rob Bleser of the Key Largo Fire Rescue dive team said there is no marine life to see at the bottom of the Spiegel Grove.

''No fish,'' he said. ``Nothing but murky water and rusted ship.''

Doherty said the four also had to contend with the bubbles of their regulators causing a ''rust rain'' with the ceilings only a couple feet above their heads.

All four men had dived wrecks that were 100 feet deeper and more difficult. They also had been in the Spiegel Grove's pump room the previous day, Spialter said.

''They didn't feel threatened by the Spiegel Grove,'' Doherty said of the ship that was sunk in 2002.

``That's the downside of having a lot of experience.''

Weather

 

[Libby]

"This is from the Miami Herald & Florida Today:

KEY LARGO -- The lone survivor of a deadly diving accident in the Florida Keys has given investigators details of how the tragedy unfolded, clues that may help unravel the mystery of how three of his experienced diving buddies died."


My prayers go to thier families.

Thanks for this post Cudachaser.....There is way to much miss-information going on with this story...I have read several versions so far and I just get more and more angry at people adding rumor to fact... Hopefully the survivor will be able to put all this to rest and we can learn valuable lessons from this and become more responsible divers ourselves. I can't imagine the pain this guy is going through right now, trying to save close friends and losing them anyway.

 

[Rick Murchison]

*** MOD NOTE ***
I have split the legal, financing, disneyfication & similar discussions off to this thread.
Please go there with legal & other similar issues.
Thanks,
Rick
*** MOD NOTE ***​

 

[HowardE]

Thanks Uncle Ricky