29 Dec 10 Fiji Diving Incident (Amy O'Maley Fatality), Part I

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Dandy:

I do not think these are the same accidents. Amy was 28 and with her boyfriend. The one you referenced here is a 19 yr old with her mother. If these accounts are correct, then there are 2 deaths in Fiji. But at the same place.

Correction:

Dandy: I read through more of the stories, it does appear that they may be one and the same. I know the news it mostly never correct, but the first story says a daughter and mother, with daughter being 18. However, Amy was with her boyfriend and 28. Just makes me wonder.
 
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I've said it many times, ALL dive boats should have AEDs on them. They cost about $1500 each and are not an unreasonable expense when you consider what's at stake. I too would bet that after over 30 minutes of being dead she was in asystole and unrevivable.

Great job though OP, color returning means you guys were doing excellent CPR. Even though this poor woman died you should be very proud of yourself for a great effort. Unfortunately even with excellent CPR many drowning victims die.

Save a life, learn CPR.
 
I've said it many times, ALL dive boats should have AEDs on them. They cost about $1500 each and are not an unreasonable expense when you consider what's at stake. I too would bet that after over 30 minutes of being dead she was in asystole and unrevivable.

Great job though OP, color returning means you guys were doing excellent CPR. Even though this poor woman died you should be very proud of yourself for a great effort. Unfortunately even with excellent CPR many drowning victims die.

Save a life, learn CPR.
Welcome to SB.

We seldom get as much info as we do for this accident. This gives me a somewhat different view than I had from the first discussion on it. Really, it looks like a lot of the usual deadly mistakes...
Forgetting or ignore training on certain basic safety issues.

So often we must be able to save ourselves regardless and we should never expect the DM to save us from our problems even if buddied with one.

Failing to allow for the all too common given that When we leave the US, we leave the US!

An AED on ever dive boat? Good luck. I can think of a host of more pressing issues common to the sport, and the real answer is to not drown in the first place.

Others snicker at me when I'm the only one on a moving boat wearing a flotation collar, only one with a pony, and other measures but oh well.
 
I've said it many times, ALL dive boats should have AEDs on them. They cost about $1500 each and are not an unreasonable expense when you consider what's at stake. I too would bet that after over 30 minutes of being dead she was in asystole and unrevivable.

Great job though OP, color returning means you guys were doing excellent CPR. Even though this poor woman died you should be very proud of yourself for a great effort. Unfortunately even with excellent CPR many drowning victims die.

Save a life, learn CPR.
While $1500 may not seem like much to us in the USA, in places like Fiji that's a huge amount of money for a "mom and pop" style business to lay out. In places where the average salary for a day is less than many US citizens make in half an hour, expecting top rate medical facilities and equipment is just not realistic. Dive operators are a niche market and we expect them to operate on shoestring budgets--paying ~$100 for two tank dives doesn't leave a lot of room for operators to pay operating costs in many places. We often expect food/snacks between dives, gas to breath during dives, transportation to and from dive sites, and personnel support during dives. That all adds up very quickly, even in low cost of living environments.

I agree that everyone diving should learn CPR.
 
Having an AED on a boat is a nice idea, but I would imagine salt water exposure would play hell with the electronic circuitry inside.
 
Divingtheseamount, thank you for your detailed account. This is a tragedy and I feel deeply for all concerned.
The traumatic stress on the rescuers in a CPR situation is not widely appreciated. What is necessary is a debrief shortly after the event, which goes a long way to minimising the trauma on the rescuers. Had this have happened I suspect you would be in a better frame of mind now. Lets face it this is the real world and by far the majority of attempts at CPR are unsuccessful. The expectation of the lay public is that if done properly the victim will survive, unfortunately this is not a TV show ("ER" seems to have over 90% success rate!)
Drowned scuba divers have a particularly bad outcome because, I suspect, the built in delays of locating, extracting the victim and commencing CPR. Defibrillation, is generally a boat ride away. How many reports on this board have you seen where everything is done by the book, ending with the victim was flown to XX medical center by the coast guard and pronounced dead on arrival?
The truth is that every now and again there is a "miracle survival" after say 60 minutes submerged (usually in cold water), this makes headlines around the world, precisely because it is so rare. Because you never know when one of these "miracles" will occur the teaching is to commence CPR on every drowning victim and continue until medical advice is at hand, it's not because there is a expectation of success however, it is because there is a chance at success, and for that one person it is 100%!
Success of course is not just ROSC, that's just the first step, to my mind success is return to tax payer status, ie. leave hospital fully in tact and able to lead a normal life.
In terms of improving the situation. In the ideal world every dive boat should have a decompression chamber, a full set of rescuscitation drugs, airway equipment, defibrillator, and staff that know how to use it. Where do you draw the line? What practically can be done is for each diver to take responsiblity for their own dive, and if it feels wrong or too advanced sit out the dive. If when you go down and the current is strong thumb the dive, I have elected not to follow DM's finning against a strong current, it's just not fun. As an adult trained diver it is unreasonable to expect someone else to tell you whether you can do a dive or not. You will resent them if they do and criticise them if something happens when they didn't.
Personally I love the remote parts of the planet, relatively unspoiled by humans, and accept the attendant risks and lack of facilities. Some of the best parts of Africa are there because the Tsetse fly, and anopheles mosquito, prevented humans from conquering it. If you visit you run the risk of dying of malaria, or even sleeping sickness. Please listen to Joni "pink paradise put up a parking lot"
I hope you recover form your ordeal and can take something positive away, like we did good CPR and it was not our fault that the outcome was as it was. Loose the guilt, by all acounts your performed exceptionally well.
 
I have to take exception to the notion that an AED on a dive boat is not much of a deal. It's long, because I think it bears explaining.

The reality is that, in a medical situation away from immediate advanced life support, such as on a dive boat, where an AED is useful, CPR is not a substitute and rarely even an effective stopgap. Note I said where defibrillation is medically indicated. In other words, when conditions are such that defibrillation can normalize cardiac rhythm, if you don't have that capability very quickly, the chance of a good outcome is very poor. Cardiac arrest produces an array of bad effects, mostly chemical, that become more difficult to reverse or even to precisely address without elaborate tests the longer the arrest persists. CPR does not effectively stave off those effects. The patient becomes and remains very, very ill. Drowning may produce additional problems of metabolic imbalance.

Defibrillation is useful to convert ventricular fibrillation. V-Fib is a gross, disorganized, random firing of multiple nodes. If you could see the heart during V-Fib, it would just quiver, and no blood is moving. Defibrillation is intended to induce a brief period of no electrical activity that hopefully will allow one of the cardiac nodes to take up a normal, rhythmic rate. Optimally, that would be the normal atrial node, so that the impulse propagates through the heart in the correct direction, but even other nodes lower in the heart can sustain life with reduced output. Since typically young, relatively healthy people who have suffered interference with their air supply are the patients in dive accidents, and this class of people have undamaged hearts, successful defibrillation will most often restart from a normal atrial node, and normal cardiac output will rapidly return. (Some effects, such as loss of blood vessel tone may take longer to recover from, but decent working blood pressure is likely.)

The ongoing metabolic imbalances induced when the heart is not moving blood also make it more difficult to terminate fibrillation. The longer the blood is not moving, the more the patient deteriorates and the more difficult defibrillation become. One factor is simple exhaustion of the cardiac nodes. Successful defibrillation is most likely when the electrical activity, disordered as it may be, is vigorous. One commonly observes the amplitude of traces on an ECG to slowly diminish as the incident progresses without success. When full advanced life support is on scene, a variety of drug interventions can be undertaken to achieve or maintain a "shockable" rhythm. The movie scene of using a defibrillator on a "flat-line" (asystole) is bogus. You need fibrillation in order to defibrillate.

From one study, it seems likely that at least 29% of drowning victims with cardiac arrest present with ventricular fibrillation and some 55% in asystole. And 16% with a heart rate so low as to be ineffective. In talking about AED's, we are talking about those 29% and any of the others who may develop V-Fib at some time during the incident. The best and only real chance of a good outcome is with defibrillation in the first minutes. Patients in V-Fib are routinely converted multiple times in hospitals with little bad effects, and that is often in patients who already have sick hearts. Patients prone to V-Fib may be converted frequently by their own implanted defibrillators. But chances of survival are dismal after more than a few minutes without advanced life support and not all that wonderful after many minutes with ALS. Do you recall reading of a dive accident where the victim required CPR for a cardiac arrest and was successfully converted and survived after a boat trip back to shore or when the airborne medic arrived 20 to 40 minutes later?

Obviously, there's no real expectation that any single dive boat will ever have to deal with a cardiac arrest. Whatever the real number of dive fatalities may be, given that there are an awful lot of dive boats making a lot of trips, they don't set out each day expecting it to happen. But our experience with AED's since they've been places in arenas, offices, airports, and on airliners makes it clear that it's 100% certain that there is some number of dead divers who would have lived had early defibrillation been available. I don't know that cost analysis in the developed nations is even necessary. An AED is 1,200 USD. For comparison, a DAN two bottle oxygen outfit is 750USD. There are places where I don't expect to find an AED due to cost. There's a lot of stuff I don't expect to find in those same places. But I would like to think that a dive operator with the resources would choose to carry the only thing that might save someone.

A dive operator considering purchase of an AED should always inquire of the additional costs and responsibilities. Most reputable AED dealers provide information and medical direction and keep track of grant opportunities. DAN has (or had) a grant program to cover half the purchase cost for operators. The program places three AED's per year. Failure to have an AED can be a liability issue. (At least one gym had to settle a very large suit on account of not having an AED when a client died on site. Another gym has been sued multiple times and has settled most of the suits with payments.) Medical control is not always required. (Florida has no pysician oversight, for instance.) But laws vary among the states:
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3024006
 
A dive operator considering purchase of an AED should always inquire of the additional costs and responsibilities. Most reputable AED dealers provide information and medical direction and keep track of grant opportunities. DAN has (or had) a grant program to cover half the purchase cost for operators. The program places three AED's per year. Failure to have an AED can be a liability issue. (At least one gym had to settle a very large suit on account of not having an AED when a client died on site. Another gym has been sued multiple times and has settled most of the suits with payments.) Medical control is not always required. (Florida has no pysician oversight, for instance.) But laws vary among the states:
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3024006

I can't really tell if you're for all dive boats having an AED or not.

As for gyms being sued, it's a completely different scenario. People have a reasonable expectation not to die in a gym. Arguably, that is also the case for diving, but there is a much higher "reasonable expectation" that if something happens you will die diving, which is not the case of working out in a gym. Basically apples and oranges comparison so the liability is questionable at best for operators who don't carry an AED on boat.

There's no question having one would be beneficial if ever needed, and the salt-water issue can be easily dealt with though it will make them even more expensive.
 
Dive operators are a niche market and we expect them to operate on shoestring budgets--paying ~$100 for two tank dives doesn't leave a lot of room for operators to pay operating costs in many places.

This goes to why they didn't shut down, too, quite likely.

I try not to be judgmental about these kinds of things. When I was in Egypt, the state of the carriage horses had me in conniption fits, but it's probably that the horses were not much worse fed than the humans who owned them. Where people are very poor, the concept of a $1200 piece of equipment to deal with the very rare near-fatality probably seems absurd.
 
I don't understand why the dive op should have shut down after the incident.

Should they close out of respect for the deceased? For how long?

Should they close to allow time for a thorough investigation? For how long?

The dive op in question is a business that probably can't take the financial blow of being shuttered for any length of time. Besides, what about the vacation divers who show up the next day (after traveling halfway around the world) expecting to dive, after booking their trip far in advance? Should they be told, "Sorry, we're closed?"
 
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