2 more upper keys dive fatalities, 8/6/2011

[MauiScubaSteve]

Dear DoNotDisturb,

Please don't take this too personally, but I wish you would take the advise of your moniker with respect to this thread.

I am a fairly experienced warm water instructor who teaches and guides with various tanks (AL 80's & 100's, LP & HP ~100's & 120's), in various 5 mm wet suits (Aquaflex & Merino lined), in various BC's (SeaQuests / Aqualungs - mostly not with integrated weights), whose students & clients are diving with various tanks (same as above plus AL 63's & 72's), in various 2 mm to 7 mm shorty to full wet suits and in mostly same as above BC's, again mostly not with integrated weights.

At first I planned to point out all the completely wrong BS you have posted in this thread, that pretty much caused all the petty back and forth crap in this thread, but now it seems much easier to just point out all the correct and relevant contributions you have posted to this thread.....

.....No matter what BC/weight system someone has -- they should be INTIMATELY familiar with weight-ditching procedures.....

Now, for my favorite contribution to the pi$$ing contest, today .....

I clip my SPG/depth gauge console to my right shoulderstrap lower D-ring and route the hose under my left arm.

..... which caused me to review posts from a couple days ago;

.....

I'm done with the pi$$ing contest..... this statement, however, bears repeating and dittoing 100 times.... :

That being said, please do us ALL a favor: if what you do is, or will be, considered an UNSAFE practice according to the methodology and teachings of the accrediting agencies, please do not mention it. Many novice divers read this forum and learn from it. Different methods that you have developed over the years that work for you work for those reasons; they may not work for someone with less experience.

 

[caseybird]

I have seen the zeagle rip cord lead release from underneath: it's AWESOME. It looks like an inverted lead explosion. Also, I am the go-to guy for rethreading the rip cord.

 

[TSandM]

I wear a very heavy weight belt under my harness, and consider the risk acceptable. I have redundant buoyancy (dry suit and wing) and enough experience, I hope, to be able to stay calm while negotiating the steps necessary to release my weights -- something I can only contemplate doing at the surface.

I think novice divers should have easily ditchable weight, and I think how weights are secured and released should be a part of all pre-dive discussions. Even within my DIR circle, I always tell my buddies I have a weight belt, how much weight is on it, and that I have two three pound weights on my cambands which can also be removed. If someone is trying to rescue me, they should know how to make me easier to surface.

It reminds me of when my dad taught me to drive and what to do when/if the throttle ever stuck open... turn the car off. Too many people think that this situation will never arise and they don't really need to know this, but when the time comes to make a very simple emergency response like "turning the key" or "ditching the lead" the consequences may be very significant.

My father tried to teach me what to do when the throttle stuck, by reached over with his foot and stomping on the accelerator as I headed into an offramp one day. I rapidly analyzed the problem, having had no training in what to do in the circumstance. Engine is accelerating, and therefore accelerating the car; excess speed is going to be a problem. Quickest solution? Disconnect engine from drive train. I pushed in the clutch

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I wear a very heavy weight belt under my harness, and consider the risk acceptable. I have redundant buoyancy (dry suit and wing) and enough experience, I hope, to be able to stay calm while negotiating the steps necessary to release my weights -- something I can only contemplate doing at the surface.

I think novice divers should have easily ditchable weight, and I think how weights are secured and released should be a part of all pre-dive discussions. Even within my DIR circle, I always tell my buddies I have a weight belt, how much weight is on it, and that I have two three pound weights on my cambands which can also be removed. If someone is trying to rescue me, they should know how to make me easier to surface.



My father tried to teach me what to do when the throttle stuck, by reached over with his foot and stomping on the accelerator as I headed into an offramp one day. I rapidly analyzed the problem, having had no training in what to do in the circumstance. Engine is accelerating, and therefore accelerating the car; excess speed is going to be a problem. Quickest solution? Disconnect engine from drive train. I pushed in the clutch

My wife did the exact same thing when she borrowed my bug, which DID have a sticking throttle cable and I did review the procedure and she did total the engine.. Should have just slapped your dad...

 

[DoNotDstrb]

@halemanō

I don't see how anything I said AFTER saying I was done with the pi$$ing contest contributes to it.

I don't see how clipping your SPG to your right shoulder is an unsafe practice or contrary to training agency guidelines. Most training agencies (GUE being the only exception I'm aware of) do not specify WHERE exactly you should clip your SPG. Most simply recommend not to have it dangling on the reef, etc....

Please feel free to contest anything I said in PM. I stand by it all and would love to discuss it. Discussions between knowledgeable people that disagree is one of the prime ways to learn stuff and I am always open to learning. I've been diving for over 30 years and thousands of dives and can pretty much back up everything I say.... most of the time with hard science. That in no way means I'm saying I'm always right.

Completely going out on a limb here... but I notice from your info that you are in Hawaii.... Perhaps you see less integrated weights because you see more traveling divers than I do? My experience (this is obviously NOT a universal statement) is that warm water divers that dive where they live (as in SoFla) mostly dive integrated weights. My boat is docked 100 feet away from Ocean Divers in Key Largo and I see VERY FEW weight belts being carried on/off their boats and they often do close to 100 divers/day between their 2 boats. I have no idea what their percentage of tourists VS locals is this time of year.

 

[reefman]

My boat is docked 100 feet away from Ocean Divers in Key Largo and I see VERY FEW weight belts being carried on/off their boats and they often do close to 100 divers/day between their 2 boats. I have no idea what their percentage of tourists VS locals is this time of year.[/QUOTE]

recently finished 6 days of diving on OD"S boat(full boat charter) and they have belts onboard, however, up until a few months ago both boats used steel 85's. the green bomb recently converted to aluminum 80's. the boat i was on still had the steels and weights used were minimal for many of the 22 divers(only observed a few belts, mostly integrated or zero lead),,,,,,,


reefman
key largo

 

[Splitlip]

Here in Palm Beach, most dive with integrated weights. (I use a belt with a bpw) A lot of rental BC's are used with belts provided by the op. I think they don't want the pouches to grow legs.

On the gauge clipped to the right shoulder, another step if someone needs to remove your rig maybe? When I used console, that is how I did it. I could glance down at my chest and get all the info I need.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I wish you would take the advise of your moniker with respect to this thread.

Ah yes, when I was 20 years old one of my oil field supervisors said this; "wish in one hand and hold the other under your bung hole; now which hand will fill up first?"

I am in the middle of moving, so my Rescue manual is not at this location, but my Open Water manual is here and in my PADI OW manual, "clipping off" the console happens before donning the equipment. Also, R&R of BC at the surface and on the bottom during CW and at the surface in OW always causes me to discuss the fact that "cross clipping" complicates these procedures.

I am sure an experienced DM would always explain the "extra release" to their buddy before the dive, but what if it is not your designated buddy that is the one acting as rescuer?

So far, the story we have been told is that initial victim pushed his first "buddy" away, presumably because he did not want her to die also. If the second "buddy" was not privy to the "buddy check" and the integrated weight pockets would not come all the way out (ScubaPro?), then the next rescue step, removing the BC, would be somewhat complicated by a "cross clipped" console. That is a bad point in the chain of rescue to be "somewhat complicated."

recently finished 6 days of diving on OD"S boat(full boat charter) and they have belts onboard, however, up until a few months ago both boats used steel 85's. the green bomb recently converted to aluminum 80's. the boat i was on still had the steels and weights used were minimal for many of the 22 divers(only observed a few belts, mostly integrated or zero lead),,,,,,,

I helped load OD's "old" AL tanks into the box truck headed to the Bahamas (or Cuba?).

All but one of the many charter boats I have worked from &/or made dives from have had their weights, and belts, onboard the boat.

Here in Palm Beach, most dive with integrated weights. (I use a belt with a bpw) A lot of rental BC's are used with belts provided by the op. I think they don't want the pouches to grow legs.

So I'm somewhat confused by this statement; do most who dive in Palm Beach own their own BC's or do most who dive in Palm Beach rent BC's?

 

[DoNotDstrb]

Ah yes, when I was 20 years old one of my oil field supervisors said this; "wish in one hand and hold the other under your bung hole; now which hand will fill up first?"

ROFL!! Very true indeed! Should see me after a few beers.... :shelli:

I am in the middle of moving, so my Rescue manual is not at this location, but my Open Water manual is here and in my PADI OW manual, "clipping off" the console happens before donning the equipment. Also, R&R of BC at the surface and on the bottom during CW and at the surface in OW always causes me to discuss the fact that "cross clipping" complicates these procedures.

I am sure an experienced DM would always explain the "extra release" to their buddy before the dive, but what if it is not your designated buddy that is the one acting as rescuer?

So far, the story we have been told is that initial victim pushed his first "buddy" away, presumably because he did not want her to die also. If the second "buddy" was not privy to the "buddy check" and the integrated weight pockets would not come all the way out (ScubaPro?), then the next rescue step, removing the BC, would be somewhat complicated by a "cross clipped" console. That is a bad point in the chain of rescue to be "somewhat complicated."

You are correct... cross-clipping does add one level of complexity. For this reason, in my particular setup, I attach the clip to the console with a rather weak zip tie that even a kid could break with a good yank. Of course, my buddy is aware of this... Also, the shouder strap quick disconnects are BELOW the attachment point... so undoing those, the waist QD, and cummerbund is all that is needed to doff my unit... all pretty standard stuff. If I am unconscious, and if my buddy is not the rescuer, and if the rescuer gets hung up on my SPG, I guess I'm screwed..... that's a lot of IFs, though... :shocked2:

Here are the OOA emergency procedures from my AOW manual:

1 - Normal ascent (My add: for low on air -- out of air, go straight to #2)
2 - Alternate air source from buddy
3 - CESA, controlled emergency swimming ascent
4 - Buddy breathe (My add: I think they've since dropped this... IDK for sure)
5 - Buoyant ascent (My add: this implies weights have been ditched and/or BC has been filled to the point of positive buoyancy)

Ditching weights and if needed, the whole kit (if memory serves) comes AFTER the CESA is not possible for whatever reason.

In the tragedy under discussion, we know they made it as far as #2 with the first buddy and #4 with the second who (reportedly) did not have an octo. What happened after that, we'll never know. I would like to ask the first buddy (the one that survived) why after they had difficulty removing the weights, why she did not use her own BC to float them both in a buoyant ascent..... I'm assuming neither was strong enough to do the CESA while still negative.

All but one of the many charter boats I have worked from &/or made dives from have had their weights, and belts, onboard the boat.

So I'm somewhat confused by this statement; do most who dive in Palm Beach own their own BC's or do most who dive in Palm Beach rent BC's?

IDK who owns what.... I dive with the Scuba Club mostly (belts/weights NOT on board boat) as well as Little Deeper, Narcosis, and Deep Obsession in the Palm Beach area and on my own boat in KL. Anecdotal observation indicates that most people here use integrated weights. Everyone I personally know and dive with uses integrated weights when diving "recreationally" in warm water. Tech/Deco dives with doubles, stage tanks, backplate/wings, etc... is another story altogether. NOT saying there's ANYTHING wrong with weight belts...there IS NOT.... Just stating what I do and see others do in my area.....

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Please feel free to contest anything I said in PM. I stand by it all and would love to discuss it. Discussions between knowledgeable people that disagree is one of the prime ways to learn stuff and I am always open to learning. I've been diving for over 30 years and thousands of dives and can pretty much back up everything I say.... most of the time with hard science. That in no way means I'm saying I'm always right.

If you had really been interested in a PM conversation, you could have PM'd me.

For the following quoted post, how about backing up things you have said with facts and math, no hard science necessary.....

Diving 8-10 lbs negative is a bad idea under ANY circumstances. You should be BARELY negative with a near-empty tank. If that translates to 8-10 lbs negative with a FULL tank -- you need different tanks. I've seen people end up in this situation with AL 100s (worst thing ever invented, IMHO) Usually smaller, muscular people end up so buoyant at the end of a dive with the 100 cu ft blimp on their back that they need that much extra lead.

.....

"Back in the day" before BCs (yes, been diving THAT long), choosing the right tank to achieve proper trim was paramount. Now (at least outside the DIR crowd), that has become somewhat of a neglected skill. Personally, I dive with 12L steel tanks (about 102 cu ft at 3500 PSI).... with a 1mm full, empty BC, and 6 lbs, I'm about 4lbs negative at the beginning and near neutral with 500 PSI.

I own a couple 120 cft's and my concept of proper weighting is "neutral at surface with empty tank and empty BC, holding a normal breath." Please do the math to figure how negative I am at the beginning of the dive. If I make a two minute descent to 130 fsw, would the lost positive buoyancy of my Pinnacle Merino-Elastiprene 5 mm be more or less than the lost negative buoyancy of the air I have breathed to that depth?

I am pretty sure I could be properly weighted, diving more than 15 lbs negative (at depth) and I do not need different tanks.

I like AL100's, especially compared to AL80's. AL100's are less buoyant empty than typical AL80's.

Perhaps the "hard science" explains your "4lbs negative at the beginning and near neutral with 500 PSI" for your 102 cf @ 3500 psi tank.