2 more upper keys dive fatalities, 8/6/2011

[Scott L]

Let's just say, they could not properly orally inflate their BCD upon surfacing before slipping back UW. Should'nt be too difficult to fairly quickly doff the rig and re-surface...

 

[dumpsterDiver]

One thing that has come out of this thread, is that I think I'm going to talk to Peter about running some theoretical scenarios for our OW students, to get them to think through some issues and come up with concepts like orally inflating and dropping weights. We know they can physically DO those things when they are told to do them, but I'm not sure we are certain they will think of them when the ideas might be needed.

Peter (and with your help) sound like some of the best instructor teams (open water) in the world (and I mean that sincerely). It honestly surprises me to hear you say that this incident would cause you to re-think things. Scenarios of dropping lead and orally inflating BC's ARE some of the most basic commonly taught responses, yes?

I am curious to hear what you would do differently, because I would assume that you have already been doing this stuff?

Also, the idea of criticizing a clipped off SPG in the context of this accident is ridiculous! If we want to go totally off topic, this particular accident where it seems that the gentleman should have, could have ditched his entire scuba unit (if all else fails) is one reason why I prefer quick release clips on a BC versus a one piece harness (that people claim they can cut a victim out of very fast).

If two (three really) recreational divers couldn't ditch integrated lead and couldn't inflate 2-3 BC's and couldn't ditch a scuba unit, they sure as hell could not cut themselves out of a harness in an emergency.

I am very curious to hear what kind of tank the guy was wearing..was it a 80 aluminum or a big, heavy steel tank? I wonder if it was a big steel tank and maybe some non-ditchable ballast and little or no exposure protection could make for a very bad situation.

I would also like to hear WHY the female victim was diving a regulator with no octopus? Was this borrowed gear?

 

[TSandM]

Well, DD, we take students through the "skill" of dropping their weights. We do it by telling them that, on the way in the shore, they must stop in water too deep to stand, and pull their weights (which almost always results in me spending some anxious time trying to find them again, as almost everybody ends up dropping them, despite being asked NOT to do so ). We also do the OOA ascent and have them orally inflate on the surface. But they are told, "You will do x, and then y, and then z," -- they don't have to go through the intellectual exercise of being faced with a specific problem, working through it mentally, and coming to the conclusion that, in that situation, they would have to drop weights or orally inflate. I think there is a subtle but very real difference between having physically learned to do something, and having processed where that skill fits into the possibilities in diving. I'm going to talk to Peter about it -- I think we need to change how we present the skills.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

With respect to how people run out of air ... simple ... they never really get taught how not to.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Peter Guy]

DumpD --- Thank you for the compliment -- and I do like to think that "we" help create some good divers. BUT, I know they could be better if I only had "X" more time in the pool, in open water, in the classroom -- I know they could learn more.

What I'm finding (what I've found) is that the real secret to teaching a good basic (and I do mean basic) Open Water Scuba Class is to decide what NOT to teach and what NOT to fret about. I know I could (and should) be doing a better job of stressing "A, B and C" but at the same time, if I did, I'm afraid that would impact the need to know "L,M, N and P" (I don't care about "O").

I try to stress the importance of ALWAYS inflate your BC whenever you are on the surface and we do spend a lot of time practicing oral inflation of the BC (but probably not as much as should or could be done). I do NOT spend much time on dropping weights and that is due to two reasons:

a. Physical teaching is done primarily in the pool and it is the exception for a student to actually need weights given the gear they use. They are negative just with the BC and Tank let alone adding a 4 pound weight belt. They do use them on a few of their pool sessions (and each time they do drop the weight belt) but, the reality, is that it isn't impressed on them that this is an option.

b. Once they get into Open Water they aren't using weightbelts, but instead, BCD integrated weights -- a totally new system for them. They do drop them (as Lynne mentioned) but it is a struggle (and it really is a struggle to pull them with 10 (or more) pounds in each pocket) and they really don't get the idea this is a useful strategy (which I'm afraid it really isn't given the total gear -- heavy gloves, restricting wetsuits, etc.).

c. From my perspective, the best strategy for dealing with the issue to to try to teach them NOT to run out of gas and thus never need to drop their weights emergently and if there is a need for floatation to oraly inflate their BC.

I'm quite willing to say this needs work -- I'm just not sure what is the least worst way of changing.

 

[DoNotDstrb]

I agree. And when this happens what I have seen too many times unfortunately, is divers "securing" the console so that it doesn't flop about; totally not realizing that this single action now HINDERS them being able to easily check the gauge.

I was on a dive where this happened and I noticed the diver not really checking the gauge. I was monitoring MINE and monitoring THEM almost the whole dive. They checked theirs maybe 3 times (over 45 minutes) and it was at such a BAD angle that I doubt they got an accurate reading (not kidding). The last time I checked mine, and saw it was at the psi needed to begin our ascent, I literally went over to them and told them it was time to go up. They didn't even look at their gauge and just began ascending.

I think too many times when divers go under, they literally leave the monitoring to their buddy. And they just swim around until their buddy says its time to go up, having no idea of their gas, their consumption, their safety needs, etc., instead of monitoring their OWN gas and realizing immediately when there is a problem.

This happens ALOT during OW classes where new divers "rely" on their instructor for everything, including to monitor THEIR OWN gas.

Just my opinion

I clip my SPG/depth gauge console to my right shoulderstrap lower D-ring and route the hose under my left arm. This positions the console mostly out of the splisptream and allows me to look at it by merely glancing down towards my chest without needing to unclip or even touch it. In this position, even glancing down at other stuff (i.e. reef, etc) would cause me to notice if the needle is in the red (<500psi) or even close to it.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I taught scuba only in warm water and I know how much harder it is (for students especially) to function with thick hoods and thick gloves and a heavy exposure suit. It has to take longer to master skills with these handicaps, let alone the stress of being chilled.

However, ditching lead is extremely important to me. I am somewhat old school and always like to dive with some ditchable lead if possible and I prefer to have a weight belt with some weight on it. I learned to dive before we really had good BC's, so ditching of lead was (and remains) a key skill in my mind.

We've seen countless arguements on this forum where people will parrot the same theme of "ditching lead at depth is suicidal".."I can't imagine myself every ditching lead underwater".. "If you drop your weight at 50 feet, you will shoot to the surface uncontrollably" "I have no problem having my weight belt restricted by a crotch strap, because I know i will never need to ditch it fast" and on and on. I don't even bother to argue the other side of the issue anymore because the sentiment seems overwhelming. Now a few people get killed in relatively shallow water, with failure to ditch lead sounding like a contributing cause of the accident and maybe the potential for ditching lead underwater seems like an important skill to have in our "bag of tricks'??.

It reminds me of when my dad taught me to drive and what to do when/if the throttle ever stuck open... turn the car off. Too many people think that this situation will never arise and they don't really need to know this, but when the time comes to make a very simple emergency response like "turning the key" or "ditching the lead" the consequences may be very significant.

I think the popularity of weight integrated BC's is associated with the type of weight belts that scuba divers have historically used. Ridiculously crappy nylon belts or soft lead pocket weight belts. These belts slide around and fall off, especaily on "round people" when their wetsuits compress at depth. It is no wonder that people moved away from these belts and began to rely upon weight integration, but I think that this shift has caused other problems including less ability to drop the lead. I know in the recent past a bigger problem was the weight sliding out too easily as well.

Maybe people should consider the rubber belt that freedivers use? They are so much more comfortable, don't slide around, compensate for suit compression and are extremely easy to ditch.

However, I am still not convinced that we know enough from what we have heard from this accident to undertand it.

 

[DoNotDstrb]

I have been following this thread since the beginning. Not because I am an avid scuba diver, hardly, I only snorkel, but because my DEAR friend died in this tragic accident. She died as she lived, helping someone else. Someone she didn't even know before that day.

I have been lurking hoping to obtain any information that I can, but then the thread deteriorated. Thank you to those that have posted information that helps me to somewhat sort out this terrible, terrible tragedy.

I will continue to monitor to see if anything new develops.

I am very sorry for your loss.......

I can assure you that (at least in my mind) even all this bickering is done in the context of finding the best and safest way to do stuff so tragedies like this do not repeat themselves. Many of us here are experienced divers... some of us professional (DumpsterDiver and others are instructors, I'm a divemaster, etc..) and our goal is not only to come back safe ourselves, but to make sure that our students, divers we take down, etc... do so as well.

I hope if you have an interest in diving, this tragedy does not deter you. Accidents do happen -- we will never know the details what "really" happened here.... but SCUBA diving remains one of the safest sports around as long as safe procedures are followed.

 

[DoNotDstrb]

key" or "ditching the lead" the consequences may be very significant.

I think the popularity of weight integrated BC's is associated with the type of weight belts that scuba divers have historically used. Ridiculously crappy nylon belts or soft lead pocket weight belts. These belts slide around and fall off, especaily on "round people" when their wetsuits compress at depth. It is no wonder that people moved away from these belts and began to rely upon weight integration, but I think that this shift has caused other problems including less ability to drop the lead. I know in the recent past a bigger problem was the weight sliding out too easily as well.

I totally agree that having the ability and practice to ditch weights is not stressed enough..... In OW class, PADI has you remove and replace a (real) weight belt while never actually dropping it. Most divers will never see another weight belt in their life (speaking in the context of warm water diving) -- they will buy or rent weight integrated BCs.... so beyond theory, this lesson is useless.

Training agencies talk about weight integrated BCs, but don't actually teach anything about them presumably because of all the different designs out there would make it difficult to "cover all the bases" --- There are some very good and very bad (IMHO) weight integration designs....

I prefer the Zeagle rip cord..... pulling a single T-handle causes the entire bottom of your BC to open up and the weight pockets fall out....They fall out in any diver orientation exept head down/feet up. Unfortunately, this is also the hardest system to put back together after a weight ditching, which discourages practice even on dry land. You have to thread this plastic cable through grommets around the circumference of the bottom of the BC..... The ripcord system, however, is very reliable when it comes to the actual ditching and only takes one hand/one motion to operate. My second favorite is one of the original designs.... simple weight pouches that slide into a pocket on either side of the BC. Most have a velcro flap with a handle. You simply pull the handle and yank the pocket/weights out and drop it. Its not my first choice because it requires two actions and for many people, both hands....

No matter what BC/weight system someone has -- they should be INTIMATELY familiar with weight-ditching procedures.

Do "old school" hard-lead weight belts have any place in warm water diving? Not so much, in my opinion -- but if someone likes them, no big deal..... I do suggest they actually practice ditching them and make sure there are no entanglement issues with their particular gear configuration. Personally, I can't stand the soft-lead pocket belts.... I recommend against them any time a diver asks me.... I cite cost and potential entanglement problems as reasons.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

However, I am still not convinced that we know enough from what we have heard from this accident to undertand it.

This is a good summation for this tragedy. :depressed: