Classes to be a great well rounded diver?

[ginti]

Since there have been several posts regarding divemasters, the skills they get assisting with courses, etc. I will ask this--
Where are all these DMs (and some instructors) that have awful buoyancy skills? In my 4 seasons I probably worked with 15 instructors and maybe the same number of DMs. They all seemed pretty darn good buoyancy-wise to me.
I don't think assisting in a "neutral" class vs. a "knees" one should have much effect on a DM's buoyancy skills.
But admittedly, I have read quite a few posts over the years with people saying they have seen DMs and instructors who have very poor skills themselves.

Since you quoted me, I try to clarify a bit my position. The topic here is "how to become a better diver", and I (we?) am (are?) trying to assess pros and cons of the DM course vs basic technical training in terms of:
- theoretical knowledge
- diving skills
- awareness
I don't see any problem here. But I didn't get any answer yet...

What is a bad buoyancy control for me in his context? Well, when a diver needs to kneel to perform tasks. Why do I think this is bad? Because I assume that, if one has good buoyancy control, wouldn't even think about kneeling - stay neutral would be automatic. Is my definition of "bad" the absolute definition? Absolutely no.

I met divemasters with buoyancy control worse than mine, and (very) few of them were bad according to my definition. Now, I am not a divemaster - but I have basic technical training. So I need to think that, at least in principle, the DM course is not necessarily better than basic tech/cave training in terms of skills, especially buoyancy. I am trying to figure out if this is the norm or not, that's it.

If you have never met DM with poor skills, well... maybe I was unlucky? I don't know, it's just my experience and I am sharing it

 

[MichaelMc]

I don't think assisting in a "neutral" class vs. a "knees" one should have any effect on a DM's buoyancy skills. They should be well beyond needing extra practice!

As I introduced the knees vs neutral:

My first point was that DM class is rather inefficient for improving your basic skills, as most of the time you are just hovering roughly nearby watching. Which should not be very taxing on skills. Or on the surface explaining, or helping set up gear or ....

The issue of improving your basic skills in DM class is very much on point. As that is why some recommend DM. I'd argue it is a very inefficient way of doing that.

My second point, neutral vs knees, was that DMing a knees first class is even less efficient, as you may not even be floating very much.

I got better at my control in the water and more polished in some basic skills from assisting with classes. But my skills were rather good already. And the focus of assisting was to help the students and improve my ability in supervising. It was really very inefficient at honing my basic OW/AOW skills. Time undisturbed in the water would be far more efficient for that.

DM class may be effective as a forcing function to push you to improve your core dive skills, but that depends on the class.

DM can make you better at organizing a group of divers and watching over them. That is the aspect of being a better diver that it is designed to give you experience and training at.

 

[Zef]

Since there have been several posts regarding divemasters, the skills they get assisting with courses, etc. I will ask this--
Where are all these DMs (and some instructors) that have awful buoyancy skills? In my 4 seasons I probably worked with 15 instructors and maybe the same number of DMs. They all seemed pretty darn good buoyancy-wise to me.
I don't think assisting in a "neutral" class vs. a "knees" one should have any effect on a DM's buoyancy skills. They should be well beyond needing extra practice!

But admittedly, I have read quite a few posts over the years with people saying they have seen DMs and instructors who have very poor skills.

Here in Belgium and the north east area of France there are quite a few dive clubs, and the clubs all have their own "school" meaning they offer instruction to those who want to get certified...in Belgium a good majority of the instructors are PADI with a handful affiliated with SSI, LIFRAS, and CMAS...there are a few other agencies represented by a small number of instructors as well. It is almost like every other person one meets who dives is either an instructor, assistant instructor, or divemaster.

In the club on the base I work at there are:
2 NAUI instructors
2 BSAC instructors
3 PADI instructor of which one of them is also an SSI and CMAS instructor
1 instructor for a Dutch federation which I believe is called NOB - Nederlandse Onderwatersport Bond
There are a couple of divemasters in the club as well...but the population of the base is transient so the numbers have a tendency to rise and fall

In the club out in town I am a part of there are:
4 PADI instructors of which 1 is also Tech diving instructor for another certifying organization
6 Divemasters of which 2 have been working on becoming assistant instructors
At least 1 current Divemaster candidate

This particular club is one of the smallest in the region. Despite the majority of the diving being in cold, dark quarries with limited visibility, diving has a unexpectedly huge following here in Belgium...because the clubs have a focus on teaching, in order to "be more involved" with club activities divers tend to move through the major cert courses over time and become "dive pros".

The problem is that there are a lot of divers who have become instructors or divemaster that perpetuate the same sh%y type of diving their instructor trained them. The divers here are sometimes called "crabs" because they have a tendency to crawl along the bottom of where ever they dive stirring and kicking up silt like you couldn't imagine. If you want to avoid that you have to arrive early and kit up to be one of the first ones in the water.

Of course there are some really good divers here...but the average diver is fairly meh, even if they are "pro".

I did my DM training just after 3 people in the one club finished their DM certification. It took them more than 6 months to complete it. It took me half that time and it could have been less my instructor had other commitments that limited when we could accomplish the different openwater scenarios. I had already been certified as a NAUI Master Diver which was more intense both knoweledgewise and skillwise than the PADI DM program. After going through the PADI DM program it totally surprises me that anyone struggles with it...and from reading here on SB there seems to be folks that do, which just is resounding message that folks are arriving at DM training with weak diving and watermanship skills. The only way to improve this area is to go out and dive with the understanding that your skills are weak and with an intent to improve. But the tales one reads are about how folks "eeked" by....so that does not mean there is a cadre of strong-skilled divemasters out here....it means there are divemasters with weak skills who are assisting and guiding new divers who think these folks sit at the zenith of the diving world. These folks are not out there developing better divers, because they don't have the personal diving skillset for those divers to emulate.

-Z

 

[Zef]

DM can make you better at organizing a group of divers and watching over them. That is the aspect of being a better diver that it is designed to give you experience and training at.

The above statement is totally on point.

So I need to think that, at least in principle, the DM course is not necessarily better than basic tech/cave training in terms of skills, especially buoyancy. I am trying to figure out if this is the norm or not, that's it.

The main difference is that in a basic tech/cave class there is an expectation that one will be developing and refining their basic techniques to suit the new type of diving they are planning on doing, that they are training for.

When one enrolls in a Divemaster class, they are basically making the statement that their basic skill set is good. The DM course of instruction should weed people out and send them back out to keep working on their skills and come back when they improve....kind of like with GUE fundamentals one is not guaranteed a pass....but there are very few instructors that support that kind of standard...so instead there are lots of folks who are using DM training to develop and strengthen their weak basic skillset...and there seems to be plenty that seem to come out on the other end of the process with the same skillset barely improved, because as has been mentioned DM training is not an efficient way to develop that skill set....the course is designed with the expectation that one already has the skills, and is there to learn to manage divers above, at, and under the surface of the water not learn how to swim, how to control their own buoyancy, how to navigate underwater, or anything else that should be learned, developed, and honed before stating they are ready to enter the realm of "professional".

When I became a ski instructor, among the things I was evaluated on were the following 3 things:
1. How well I can personally ski
2. How well I could demonstrate certain skills
3. How well I could teach/conduct a class

The certification course was not there to teach me to ski. It was to test my mettle on the snow against certain criteria, the entire certification process was a continuous evaluation. The expectation is that one had a decent skillset above the basic level upon arriving. The expectation was that one took preparatory clinics to learn the basics of teaching skiing and hit the slopes to put in the effort to develop their skillset before showing up for the certification class...not everyone passes, and the remedial aspect if you don't pass is to go lick your wounds and engage with folks who can ski well so that you have a stronger skillset the next time you come back. If you do pass, the expectation is that you continue your learning process to become a better skier and instructor...every two years one has to amass a certain number continuing education units, the common way to do this is to attend clinics that make are geared at honing how we teach, how we analyze movement on the snow, etc. It is during these classes that we breakdown the fundamentals of the basic skillset and learn how to better teach them, its where instructors come to share ideas and observations...its not where you come to initially learn how to ski because as a "pro" that is already expected of you.

This mentality and requirement does not exist in the recreational diving world. We put so much emphasis on the need to be "certified" to engage in our activity but the level of competence and skill expected of our "pros" is low...in contrast one can go ski without ever taking a moment of instruction, but those who want to be professionals in that sport are expected to show up with skills that are developed enough to meet the standards.

-Z

 

[NCK]

The amount of detailed discussion here is impressive.

@NCK - are you coming to any conclusions for yourself while we try to fix the dive industry's frustrating paradox of standards and reality?

I admit I may have missed it.

I have actually found this discussion great, read every post. Didn't ever expect this many good response when I made the original post.

1. I find it a but ridiculous that DM annual fees cost almost twice as much and insurance almost 3 times as much as my nursing license and insurance. For a card for a job to make minimum wage, just doesn't make sense to me.

2. I think AOW(probably doing Nitrox and altitude specialties just due to spending a lot of time in Tahoe), rescue and NAUI MD or fundamentals is the way I want to go(probably just picking the one that has an instructor I like and good location/schedule for me). Probably adding solo at some point.

3. I think a lot on here (and this board in general) come from a industry point of view rather than a just looking to gain knowledge and have some fun point of view. I understand there are probably cheaper routs than taking a bunch of classes. But it's really not a big deal as long as I have fun along the way.

4. I never knew there was so much difference between different agencies. example, MD recognition card vs NAUI MD training program. I hadn't even heard of GUE before this thread (though I had seen "fundies" mentioned on a few threads but didn't really know what it was).

 

[mc42]

Since you quoted me, I try to clarify a bit my position. The topic here is "how to become a better diver", and I (we?) am (are?) trying to assess pros and cons of the DM course vs basic technical training in terms of:
- theoretical knowledge
- diving skills
- awareness
I don't see any problem here. But I didn't get any answer yet...

What is a bad buoyancy control for me in his context? Well, when a diver needs to kneel to perform tasks. Why do I think this is bad? Because I assume that, if one has good buoyancy control, wouldn't even think about kneeling - stay neutral would be automatic. Is my definition of "bad" the absolute definition? Absolutely no.

I met divemasters with buoyancy control worse than mine, and (very) few of them were bad according to my definition. Now, I am not a divemaster - but I have basic technical training. So I need to think that, at least in principle, the DM course is not necessarily better than basic tech/cave training in terms of skills, especially buoyancy. I am trying to figure out if this is the norm or not, that's it.

If you have never met DM with poor skills, well... maybe I was unlucky? I don't know, it's just my experience and I am sharing it

I did my Tec 40 before DM so the following is from that specific point of view:

Theoretical Knowledge:
There is a large study component and related examination in DM around diving general knowledge; e.g. what causes tides, ecosystems, dive physiology and physics, decompression theory, gear, dive planning with tables and RDP. I think it's good to have all that breadth and depth as a diving professional.

Tech knowledge development focuses on gear, thinking like a tech diver, redundancy, planning, decompression theory, and of course on techniques for planning and executing decompression dives.

Diving Skills:
There aren't any specific dive skill performance requirements for completing DM. You are formally evaluated on things like comfort in water (various swim tests) and ability to demonstrate 24 skills that are part of the OW course, then there are practical evaluations like being able to lead dives. There is no expectation of doing skills neutrally buoyant (though there may be bonus points for doing so), and there is no part of DM that focuses on diving skills improvement unless you're particularly deficient in something that the instructor notices and feels is important to work on.

DM is focused on leadership and judgement first and foremost, which contribute to your main job, supervising and conducting safe dives and dealing with related problems. A secondary component would be assisting instructors mostly in class management and teaching the handful of skills you're permitted to teach. A major non-skills component of DM education is the professional side: learning about the agency's standards and rules, what you can and cannot teach, instructor-to-student ratios, course prerequisites, sales, customer service.

Will your in-water skills improve in DM? Most likely, but more as an indirect result of pool/OW time, extra task loading, situational awareness, and needing to be a good example to others at all times. The responsibility is on you to know what you have to improve. So there's no surprise that you find anyone, DM or otherwise, possibly lacking because they might not have had a good model or instructor. I certainly needed someone to point out issues with my technique that I couldn't notice without their help or video proof. Also, don't forget dive shop training or regional variations - up here in the PNW, divers are preconditioned to be neutral or use 2 fingers to avoid stirring up the bottom, so the DM's will hopefully continue to model that through their own training.

Tech, on the other hand, will expand your diving skills envelope, no question, due to specific skills that are performance requirements for the course. You said you've got basic tech, so I won't go into the list, but the ability to have a controlled ascent with multiple stops, switch gases, deal with problems without surfacing, and work as a team while under time, gas, and buoyancy variation limits are valuable and personally rewarding skills to have (once you master them) but certainly not part of the basic DM's skill requirements.

There is overlap between Tech and DM around the dive planning and logistics of course, with the exception of the decompression planning. All good divers should at least have a plan in their heads, so neither differs much in the broad strokes: minimum gas reserves, dive briefings, appropriate site selection, dive goals, environmental considerations, emergency preparedness, etc.

Awareness:
As I already mentioned, DM stresses awareness of problems and anticipating problems. On a DSD or DLD dive your students/customers expect you to conduct a safe and fun dive. You need to be able to fix the gear, adjust their buoyancy before it's a problem, track their gas usage, not get lost, show them cool stuff, etc. The buck now stops with you, and that is a significant mindshift and chance to grow in that leadership space.

Tech stresses similar awareness, the different assumption is your team is fairly independent and skilled and not liable to be bouncing off coral or running out of gas, but you still need to be aware of your team members, be in passive contact with them (using your lights, for example) and your positioning relative to them to be able to instantly respond to problems. You may assign different responsibilities on the dive, like bottom captain and deco captain, but everybody is assumed to have a say in the conduct of the dive and speak up during and after the dive.

My Take:
If you want to acquire a broad skills repertoire, I agree with others that mention Rescue + basic technical cert like a PADI Tec 40. I strongly believe the knowledge, mindset and skillset you acquire in tech are important for being an environmentally considerate thinking diver that isn't reliant on others for executing a safe and fun dive, whether within rec limits or not.

If you feel your leadership skills need a boost, then DM is good for that particular aspect, but be aware it is targeted to the professional skills realm, and if you have no interest in agency standards, that part will be a waste of time. Of course, you'll still be an improved diver as a DM in that your overall skills, knowledge, confidence in handling many different situations, and awareness will be greater than when you started.

My particular road passed through GUE Fundamentals before PADI TecRec, and Fundamentals solidified a lot of the core diving skills list above prior to taking tech. So I do recommend Fundies or similar core or pre-tech courses offered by agencies or LDS (my LDS developed a great specialty akin to Fundies) and it isn't a bad place to pause, get more experience with the improved skills, before considering if you want to move into tech training.

 

[ScubaBunga]

I have actually found this discussion great, read every post. Didn't ever expect this many good response when I made the original post.

1. I find it a but ridiculous that DM annual fees cost almost twice as much and insurance almost 3 times as much as my nursing license and insurance. For a card for a job to make minimum wage, just doesn't make sense to me.

2. I think AOW(probably doing Nitrox and altitude specialties just due to spending a lot of time in Tahoe), rescue and NAUI MD or fundamentals is the way I want to go(probably just picking the one that has an instructor I like and good location/schedule for me). Probably adding solo at some point.

3. I think a lot on here (and this board in general) come from a industry point of view rather than a just looking to gain knowledge and have some fun point of view. I understand there are probably cheaper routs than taking a bunch of classes. But it's really not a big deal as long as I have fun along the way.

4. I never knew there was so much difference between different agencies. example, MD recognition card vs NAUI MD training program. I hadn't even heard of GUE before this thread (though I had seen "fundies" mentioned on a few threads but didn't really know what it was).

Great perspective - I don't want to inflame anyone and I think I got very lucky with the LDS I did most of my training through - apparently they were competent trainers, good people, and had good classes. Just about every class I took I learned something I use all the time. I've also dove with many DM that I would not want to be buddied with again - their card did not provide them skills I felt safe diving around (not all DM, but the card is only as good as the diver). I think you have the right attitude here, find a class that interests you - there is most likely some value in it (although the many fun specialties I think are just a way to keep busy). When I got started I knew I was going to enjoy it and went all in. I took OW, then ICE Diving to get enough dives to take Nitrox, then did AOW, night, wreck, deep, rescue and probably a few others in there. The added awareness each brought helped for each new dive. But I went into it wanting to LEARN, not just get the card or get the next level as that really doesn't matter to being a good diver. As I've mentioned, I've seen several DM's not worth their OW card. I've also seen divers with tons of dives that are questionable at best and others with a few dives that are calm and competent. I have not gotten DM - either due to time constraints of job or knowing I would not use it enough to pay for insurance and other costs (no where near good diving), but I hope to take it at some point due to the many good examples I have seen and heard about the training.
I wanted to be safe for me and my dive buddies (being self reliant as well there - although this may be a personality thing). To me this means learning many aspects and practicing good practices (also goes back to the instructors). Just starting out - get AOW - figure out what you are comfortable with - look at classes where maybe you aren't and expand/take next level of where you are comfortable. In the end the cards don't mean much, so don't take a class to get a card. Take a class to LEARN something you will use. Back when I took my first courses, it was more what can I take next as that's the only diving I'm going to do, but again my LDS was great and I think I turned into a good diver (self assessment). I also found out after moving that many LDS are not great or even good - that was rather a shock to me after so many years of great people, service, classes.

So long post - go with #3 above - then get out and dive!

 

[NCK]

Great perspective - I don't want to inflame anyone and I think I got very lucky with the LDS I did most of my training through - apparently they were competent trainers, good people, and had good classes. Just about every class I took I learned something I use all the time. I've also dove with many DM that I would not want to be buddied with again - their card did not provide them skills I felt safe diving around (not all DM, but the card is only as good as the diver). I think you have the right attitude here, find a class that interests you - there is most likely some value in it (although the many fun specialties I think are just a way to keep busy). When I got started I knew I was going to enjoy it and went all in. I took OW, then ICE Diving to get enough dives to take Nitrox, then did AOW, night, wreck, deep, rescue and probably a few others in there. The added awareness each brought helped for each new dive. But I went into it wanting to LEARN, not just get the card or get the next level as that really doesn't matter to being a good diver. As I've mentioned, I've seen several DM's not worth their OW card. I've also seen divers with tons of dives that are questionable at best and others with a few dives that are calm and competent. I have not gotten DM - either due to time constraints of job or knowing I would not use it enough to pay for insurance and other costs (no where near good diving), but I hope to take it at some point due to the many good examples I have seen and heard about the training.
I wanted to be safe for me and my dive buddies (being self reliant as well there - although this may be a personality thing). To me this means learning many aspects and practicing good practices (also goes back to the instructors). Just starting out - get AOW - figure out what you are comfortable with - look at classes where maybe you aren't and expand/take next level of where you are comfortable. In the end the cards don't mean much, so don't take a class to get a card. Take a class to LEARN something you will use. Back when I took my first courses, it was more what can I take next as that's the only diving I'm going to do, but again my LDS was great and I think I turned into a good diver (self assessment). I also found out after moving that many LDS are not great or even good - that was rather a shock to me after so many years of great people, service, classes.

So long post - go with #3 above - then get out and dive!

That's kinda how I'm looking at it. With the world closed I may as well take a few classes as I probably won't be traveling to warmer waters any time soon.

 

[azstinger11]

If you are Southern California, I highly encourage you to take LA County's Advanced Diver Program. It isn't a trim nazi class like fundies or anything like that. But it packed to the brim with stuff relevant to diving in Southern California. I did this after I did rescue and it was money well spent (and we drove up from San Diego every weekend for it).

 

[Blackcrusader]

Personally I think this thread has gone off the rails a bit. The OP asked from going from OW to being a well rounded diver.
For me I am thinking recreational diving, not to the technical diving areas. OK maybe tec 40 or tec 50 or sidemount later on.

I did padi OW in January 1986 then moved to Brunei where I joined a BSAC club and did BSAC Sports diving which was trained for DECO on air dives with multilevel stops. No nitrox back then. So did all my next 2 years doing that every week then dove with some club Members back in Australia before moving to Taiwan. Mostly in Asia there is not much BSAC Deco on air diving around. Mostly PADI and I am talking back from 1990 - 2004 where I did lots of diving around 250 - 300 a year. Then I took basically a break till 2014 where I only did maybe 10 - 15 dives a year from 2004 - 2014. Some dive areas like PG in Philippines went from remote areas with nice diving to girly bar night clubbing hop zones for bucket list adventure seekers.

In 2014 onwards I started doing several dive trips a year totaling 8 - 10 weeks a year of diving. My vacation diving is 3 - 4 dives a day for 10 - 15 days straight. I think the most dives I did in one vacation was 58 dives. BTW most of these dive vacations have been with the same dive center. So getting back into diving I did Nitrox and after a couple hundred dives I re-did my rescue course. Why? Well danged if I could remember anything from my previous course in 1987 and and I needed to do the EFR anyway. I did some deep diving courses with a German instructor who is a no nonsense chap and he told me I am just wasting my money as he said I just needed to dive again not do courses lol. He said their was not much he could teach me as to the course itself as I was reviewing things I had already done before. I was fine doing it again and paying for it.

I've had instructors tell their students to observe me on dives. After they finish their certifications many of those students will dive with me. I've spent time helping them become more observant on their dives and reduce their air consumption. They don't need peak buoyancy padi classes they can learn that from diving with me, getting their weights, tank position, weight position, buoyancy and trim improved and not chase the marine life, let the marine life come to you. They become better recreational dives to the extent they are their to have fun dives and not need to really know their sac rate, they dive within NDL so no need to know multilevel deco or tec skills. I teach them to do helicopter spins. Sometimes I go inverted and the diver above spins with me. Sometime they try the inverted spin and can't get their breathing right. It's fun. For me trim is not always about being horizontal because when taking video I will be in a vertical position. I am often in a vertical position in a fast drift so my body is acting as a sail pushing me along. I've been they way several meters away from a reef wall sitting in my budha position with my legs crossed moving along faster than divers next to the wall in nice horizontal trim finning alone. Me motionless looking at them with this does not compute look on their faces Sometimes I am head down to look under coral platforms. I pass on how to avoid fins banging into corals and to just stay a little bit further away from reef walls where they see large fans. With the guides I know and dive with I will often tell them I will stay at the back of the group. Easy to count heads and also gives me time to take photos without being disturbed too much.

Sometimes the dive center gets visiting instructors from elsewhere who say they don't want to dive with people " below their skill set" which really means their certification level. So I get assigned to them and they are happy with that. After I film them turning over rocks or banging into corals back on the dive boat they get to asking me what cert level I have. I dare not say really... sometimes I lie I told some French instructors who thought handling marine life was OK I was Course Director. They looked away in shame. My guide and I just laughed as we both know I was telling fibs. Some padi istructors spend so much time teach students they are not actually really good divers. You may think I am being arrogant but I have met instructors who went from OW to Padi Instructor in the shortest time possible so they could stay in Asia on their diving lifestyle. Yet a lot of the local DM cert guides are far better divers.

I dive with a lot of instructors who visit and they rarely ask what level certification I am as we are doing padi recreational dives. Some after the dives have assumed I am a working DM or instructor level cert just from the way I dive. I'm not lol. I went with one DM and his divers on a dive. My first dive with that DM. All the other divers were OW certs insta buddies and when the DM asked me what cert I had I replied OW. After the dive he comes to me and says OW my arse. I just smiled. Done lots of dives with him since that day.

I think I am a proficient diver with a very good sac rate. Maybe this is what NCK wants.
rescue Nitrox and deep dive and lots of dives enough for a lot of people at recreational level.
DM and even instructor cert is good to do even with you never want to be a working DM or instructor. Just my humble opinion