Boat diving.Do we have it all wrong?!

[helodriver87]

Keep in mind technical diving was, at least indirectly, the genesis of this thread. That's how I've been framing my points. I think fitness at some level is important to all diving, but it's non negotiable for technical diving. And your fitness should scale appropriately with conditions and the nature of the dive.

 

[boulderjohn]

Everyone seems to be taking extremes here. Boat crews absolutely provide reasonable assistance. The question is "what is reasonable in a specific case?"

I once led a group trip that included a diver with a chronic hip problem. He struggled to get off the boat, and he could not climb the ladder with gear on. We had alerted the dive operation ahead of time, and they were fully prepared to assist. That assistance was done so efficiently it was barely noticeable. That diver, however, was not doing technical diving with double tanks on his back and carrying deco bottles. If they had had to provide that level of service in a technical diving situation, it would be, IMO, too much to ask. He would not think of attempting that, though, because he had the common sense to know his limitations.

This thread started out, frankly, as a gender issue. Donna Tobias was the first woman to graduate from the US Navy Deep Diving School, where she had to wear 200 pounds of equipment for every dive. She was then given very limited duty, not because she could not handle the work--she had proven she could--but because she was a woman. Those days are gone. I cannot think of a time in my diving career in which I perceived an expectation by anyone that a diver could not do something because of her gender. In the Navy, Donna Tobias showed she could handle the physical requirements of deep diving, and she should not have been prevented from doing so. If, on the other hand, she had not been able to meet minimum requirements for the job, she would never have graduated.

So what are the minimum physical requirements for tech diving off a boat, assuming that the crew will provide reasonable assistance? I don't really know, because I have never seen anyone who did not meet those minimum physical requirements. I think that is because every technical diver I have met has enough common sense to know what those minimum requirements are. When I shattered my collarbone and a bunch of ribs in an accident and finally got the OK from my surgeon to resume diving, I did not attempt it until I made sure I could do everything that would be expected of me, and I assume pretty much everyone else would do the same.

 

[KevinNM]

US divers seem to be unaware/in denial about a number of ways they are badly served by the the boats/agency/shops and so you see reactions like “only wimps need lifts and wimps should not dive” rather than “lifts, what a good idea I will still be able to dive when I am 75”.

Perhaps you should go explain that to the US Coast Guard? Because, as has been explained in great detail several time in this thread, it’s basically impossible to get a lift approved by the USCG. And without that you can’t take paying customers, and the law defines ‘paying’ very broadly.

 

[rjack321]

So what are the minimum physical requirements for tech diving off a boat, assuming that the crew will provide reasonable assistance? I don't really know, because I have never seen anyone who did not meet those minimum physical requirements. I think that is because every technical diver I have met has enough common sense to know what those minimum requirements are.

Being able to climb a reasonable and well designed boat ladder which was purpose built for almost anyone to come up with a single, doubles or a CCR on. Having to crawl across the deck or have your gear hoisted aboard is more like adaptive diving. That is a thing - but those people aren't doing deco dives because they require more than minimal assistance.

If you can't climb ladders like these, you need to stick to single tanks and no deco.
https://www.shipwreckexplorers.com/scuba-diving-charters/

https://www.doubleactiondivecharters.com/fleet/

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g34344-d2578375-Reviews-Horizon_Divers-Key_Largo_Florida_Keys_Florida.html#photos;aggregationId=101&albumid=101&filter=7&ff=278014978

https://www.gypsyblooddive.com/gallery

Based on the sub-thread which instigated this discussion, clearly some SB people are too stubborn to know their own limits even once they are told.​

 

[KenGordon]

Perhaps you should go explain that to the US Coast Guard? Because, as has been explained in great detail several time in this thread, it’s basically impossible to get a lift approved by the USCG. And without that you can’t take paying customers, and the law defines ‘paying’ very broadly.

There you all go again, giving up in the face of big organisations. If there are rules, and my experience of the kind of specification governments like to write suggests they are never very specific, get them changed.

Is there no obligation on US companies to provide services regardless of gender or disability?

PS you know I don’t live in the US, that was a rhetorical “you” wasn’t it?

 

[DBPacific]

This thread started out, frankly, as a gender issue. Donna Tobias was the first woman to graduate from the US Navy Deep Diving School, where she had to wear 200 pounds of equipment for every dive. She was then given very limited duty, not because she could not handle the work--she had proven she could--but because she was a woman. Those days are gone. I cannot think of a time in my diving career in which I perceived an expectation by anyone that a diver could not do something because of her gender. In the Navy, Donna Tobias showed she could handle the physical requirements of deep diving, and she should not have been prevented from doing so. If, on the other hand, she had not been able to meet minimum requirements for the job, she would never have graduated.

I am no tech diver so I will not comment on the tech aspect of this. With all due respect, your perceptions of expectations, particularly perceptions of in-person interactions, can be very different to what women perceive and experience simply because our experiences can be different than male divers. That perception that you haven't had is one that I encountered before my 30th dive.

Some of the best divers (albeit not tech divers) I know, male and female, have had disabilities that forced them to make accommodations. Some were from age, some were from issues they were born with. There are also several folks, one of whom is an amputee, on SB who have shared their experiences going through tech and cave training that I greatly admire and I aspire to be a diver like them, who doesn't let other people make decisions on their capabilities.

As someone who needs some level of accommodations on a regular basis on the surface, there is a very large difference between someone willfully and malignantly using accommodations without trying to meet people halfway and someone who does as much as they can to reduce the burden on others but still might need help.

 

[KenGordon]

I do wonder what a perfect boat would be. Let's forget about what is or isn't necessary, just talking about what I would like to see. Think facilities and services like:
- lift (yes I understand that can be challenging legally)
- backup ladder
- dive deck with enough room to don / doff kit without hitting your neighbor
- assistance with kit don / doff when asked
- onboard trimix analysers and maybe even compressors / banks with gas
- (drifting) deco trapeze
- "unlimited" supply of drinking water
- reef friendly sun block
- rinse bucket
- dry area
- suncovers / shaded areas
- enough staff so you feel like you can ask for assistance when you want to
- toilet

Obviously it is nice to dream, but these things do come at a cost. I think if a skipper can facilitate this for about 150 dollar / day (not including gasses) I would be quite happy.

Award winning Orkney diving charter Scapa Flow, Shetland and Norway. £700 for 6 days including a place to sleep.

It has everything except the sunblock. Our life is not so namby pamby as to wilt with a little zinc.

That particular boat also supplies buckets of hot water for gloves and hoods.
The day boats are £50 to £60 but don’t generally provide gas.

 

[wstorms]

Award winning Orkney diving charter Scapa Flow, Shetland and Norway. £700 for 6 days including a place to sleep.

It has everything except the sunblock. Our life is not so namby pamby as to wilt with a little zinc.

That particular boat also supplies buckets of hot water for gloves and hoods.
The day boats are £50 to £60 but don’t generally provide gas.

To be fair, in Scotland I can go without the sunblock

Looks like fun. Will check it out for sure when we can travel there again.

 

[ginti]

If you can't climb ladders like these, you need to stick to single tanks and no deco.

A quick question here. Earlier you said that, if one cannot perform some basic actions, (s)he should pay for dedicated assistance. Assuming you cannot climb ladders like the ones you posted, would you do tech diving with some special assistance? Frankly speaking, I am not sure whether one can consider tech diving safe in this case in the ocean even with dedicated assistance, but my experience is very limited...

Funny how some people cannot see the difference between "being able to climb a ladder without help" and "climb a ladder without help". Every time I go diving to the sea on a boat, crew members try to help me if they can; I do not refuse, even if I am able to climb alone

 

[Edward3c]

To be fair, in Scotland I can go without the sunblock

Looks like fun. Will check it out for sure when we can travel there again.

Don’t be fooled by no sunblock. On our one day on summer, this year it was May 25th, you can get burnt.

There are a million midges waiting to greet each tourists this year.