PADI?

[Miyaru]

Your fellow divers will not care who certified you. We all just want to dive. The dive shops really don't care either...they just want to see your proof of certification. My certification is from PADI, and I have come to learn that it is a well-recognized brand worldwide, so it's like your passport. You can use it anywhere in the world. As far as the quality of my training, it was poor. That's not PADI's fault, but the instructor. PADI provides them the coursework and it's up to the instructor to do his job well. What IS PADI's fault is not providing a more comprehensive course with longer instruction time and requiring, say, 25 dives to achieve OW. And I think the Nitrox training should be included in the OW course. PADI's core instruction model is really flawed.

Retrospectively, to think that I could competently perform the tasks of SCUBA after just 5 dives and some classroom time was insane. I never felt pressured to take classes, but they did offer to teach me the OW and AOW in a combo-style class, which I declined. It was several years between getting my OW & AOW, and by the time I took the AOW, I already had comfort in the AOW skills doing regular, diving so the course was easy. And, as a side note, my AOW was done in Hawaii, and given the high cost of diving in Hawaii, the cost of the AOW course was only about $50 more than if I had paid for those dives. I did all the book work at home, then did the classroom review and diving in Hawaii. It worked out great!

In summary, my opinion is that all you really need to pay for in courses would be OW, AOW, & Nitrox, since these are the most basic and necessary skills to be on your way to becoming an experienced recreational diver. I have learned so much from other, more experienced divers over the years, so I would rather spend the money I would have paid for the "fluff" specialties on actual diving. Just my opinion.

How would I know? PADI doesn't publish the standards. One of the reasons that I went to TDI and NSS-CDS for tech instead of PADI.

It may seem that way. But the requirements are defined by the WRSTC, the agencies just define the method of teaching of all these ISO standards.

Yes, the WRSTC is formed by representatives of nearly all agencies (except e.g. CMAS), but a single member will not deviate from the standards in their teaching of these requirements.

So bashing any WRSTC member is essentially bashing all of them. Shortsighted & useless.

 

[ginti]

It may seem that way. But the requirements are defined by the WRSTC, the agencies just define the method of teaching of all these ISO standards.

Yes, the WRSTC is formed by representatives of nearly all agencies (except e.g. CMAS), but a single member will not deviate from the standards in their teaching of these requirements.

So bashing any WRSTC member is essentially bashing all of them. Shortsighted & useless.

WRSTC, as far as I know, defines just the minimum standards. So agencies have some (a lot of?) freedom. And I don't think that speciality cards are a topic of interest for the WRSTC.

On the other hand, if all the member agencies agree that a certain minimum standard is sufficient to ensure safety... well they are doing it all together; if they don't believe it, they just should raise the bar. So your point is fair enough I think

 

[The Chairman]

But I do include this.

My OW students deploy on the surface. My AOW students deploy from depth.

So, you had a really crappy instructor, who avoided the course standards.

I've suggested this before, but why not reach out to REEF.org for help in fish ID? My AOW students have to join REEF and do at least one survey. REEF requires they ID at least one fish, but most of my students do more. Plus, I get them thinking about doing this on every dive. I get to support REEF and give my student a way to really learn their fish.

 

[Diving Dubai]

I will say this. As a new diver I do think the agencies are lacking in making sure core skills are taught. I got excellent instruction in the science and safety of it all. But when it came to weighting, trim and buoyancy, it was severely lacking. I got more out of a 1 hr private session than I did in the entire course. I do give my instructor credit for telling me I should take a private lesson or two and focus on buoyancy. The thing is, if this is so important, it should be a foundational skill and NOT an add-on class for more $$$.

Remembering back to my training and things I wished we spent bit more time on:

Proper weighting, which then leads into trim and buoyancy. My class we never went over DSMB deployment or saw it. Think this would be great too.

Devils Advocate:

Would you have been prepared to pay for say a 6 day course rather than a 4 (costs increased pro rata) - Might the additional cost put you off?

Another factor (s) Students learn at different speeds. I limit my max students to 3 or 4, BUt 4 days on an OW can be very intensive - especially if some can't grasp concepts. For other's it's a breeze and you can put in additional skills - I had a 12yr old once who was such a natural she was launching a dsmb neutral from 4m on OW 3 - and holding a stop with zero intervention. Other's take more time and don't have the bandwidth for it all) You'd be surprised how many students on days 2,3 even 4 have "forgotten" how to assemble their kit

On a course we request students are at the centre for 8:30 and don't expect to leave until 5pm. This allows plenty of time to carry out all the lessons at a nice relaxed pace without pressure.

It's not uncommon for the students to rock up at 9:30 and "need to leave" by 3pm - suddenly I've lost 3hrs on each of the CW days. Add in their additional pressure that they must be certified by XX date since they've got a vacation booked And suddenly it becomes a lot more stressful and less enjoyable for all

Some people also need 5 or 6 dives under their belt to consolidate what they've learnt before they're ready for DSMB - as I've said, others find it a breeze

If I had a nice easy 6 days with 6 or 8 OW dives over 3 days and 3 days in the pool I could achieve a lot more

Would people pay. Some perhaps, the majority no, they'd go to the next shop up the road who promises OW in 3 days at 60% less cost.

Also. Someone paying say $2000 inc for a week of Fundies, is probably more invested and driven in learning and getting the maximum benefit from that course, than someone just paying $300-$400 for 3 or 4 days.

Just an opinion

 

[Edward3c]

It may seem that way. But the requirements are defined by the WRSTC, the agencies just define the method of teaching of all these ISO standards.

Yes, the WRSTC is formed by representatives of nearly all agencies (except e.g. CMAS), but a single member will not deviate from the standards in their teaching of these requirements.

So bashing any WRSTC member is essentially bashing all of them. Shortsighted & useless.

Why waste time with WRSTC when agencies, like, PADI and BSAC (there must be others, but I can't find them) have been assessed, and get reassessed, to the ISO Standards.

EN 14153-2/ISO 24801-2 - 'Autonomous Diver' = PADI OW, BSAC Ocean Diver. This doesn't meet the courses duplicate each other as both have elements not taught in the other.

 

[Barnaby'sDad]

Devils Advocate:

Would you have been prepared to pay for say a 6 day course rather than a 4 (costs increased pro rata) - Might the additional cost put you off?

Another factor (s) Students learn at different speeds. I limit my max students to 3 or 4, BUt 4 days on an OW can be very intensive - especially if some can't grasp concepts. For other's it's a breeze and you can put in additional skills - I had a 12yr old once who was such a natural she was launching a dsmb neutral from 4m on OW 3 - and holding a stop with zero intervention. Other's take more time and don't have the bandwidth for it all) You'd be surprised how many students on days 2,3 even 4 have "forgotten" how to assemble their kit

On a course we request students are at the centre for 8:30 and don't expect to leave until 5pm. This allows plenty of time to carry out all the lessons at a nice relaxed pace without pressure.

It's not uncommon for the students to rock up at 9:30 and "need to leave" by 3pm - suddenly I've lost 3hrs on each of the CW days. Add in their additional pressure that they must be certified by XX date since they've got a vacation booked And suddenly it becomes a lot more stressful and less enjoyable for all

Some people also need 5 or 6 dives under their belt to consolidate what they've learnt before they're ready for DSMB - as I've said, others find it a breeze

If I had a nice easy 6 days with 6 or 8 OW dives over 3 days and 3 days in the pool I could achieve a lot more

Would people pay. Some perhaps, the majority no, they'd go to the next shop up the road who promises OW in 3 days at 60% less cost.

Also. Someone paying say $2000 inc for a week of Fundies, is probably more invested and driven in learning and getting the maximum benefit from that course, than someone just paying $300-$400 for 3 or 4 days.

Just an opinion

Agreed. While it is adhering to standards, at the end of the day...it is a completion based course, rather than an elimination based course.

Most people aren’t going to pay out of pocket for a course that is either so lengthy that it is cost prohibitive or so difficult that a good amount of people wash out.

Besides...the majority of people that complete an OW course are going on to complete resort style (boat crew will even assist with gear assembly) DM led dives. How great do your “core skills” need to be when each small group of divers is going to have a babysitter?

 

[tursiops]

I've suggested this before, but why not reach out to REEF.org for help in fish ID? My AOW students have to join REEF and do at least one survey. REEF requires they ID at least one fish, but most of my students do more. Plus, I get them thinking about doing this on every dive. I get to support REEF and give my student a way to really learn their fish.

I'd like membership in REEF and some surveys (5?) to be a prereq for the PADI Fish ID instructor card, just like there are prereqs for some other instructor cards.

 

[ofg-1]

You know guys, I am a old man. I became a scuba instructor in July 1973, cross certified into PADI shortly after, my PADI number is M3998.

Do you have any idea how long I have heard people bitching about PADI? Since 1973. What has PADI done about it? They have moved from being a small organization with 6 employees in Costa Mesa to being a profitable worldwide corporation. That is what they have done in response to all of your bitching. Congratulations, you have really showed them!.

Now as to all the specialty classes we joke about. Someone thought they could sell these classes.Someone bought them. It is really disingenuous for you guys with 500, 1000 , 2000 dives to complain about these classes. A person with 10 dives may get something out of them, even if it is only to meet other people and get a couple of guided dives. They may have fun, God forbid. No one forces you to teach these. Don't get upset if people want to spend their money, its their money.

I guess I should address you buoyancy nazis. I was taught neutral buoyancy in my basic class in 1967. Why? We didn't have bc's. PADI had a required skill they called "hovering" in the mid 70's. I am all for teaching neutrally buoyant classes, off the bottom. Its a good idea. Its also stupid for people with hundreds or thousands of dives to get all butthurt if someone with 10 dives gets a knee or hand down.

I worked in South Florida a number of years. We would certify a diver, they would go back to New York, chip ice off their gonads for the winter, come back, show their OW card, get on a boat and they were a hot mess. Then the bitching would start. It was PADI's fault, the instructor was bad, the store was bad. Never occurred to anyone that you take a guy that has 8 dives, put him out of the water for 7 months, that when he gets back in, he's a hot mess. Or that if they dive twice during the winter in a fresh water quarry, when they jump off a boat in 3 foot chop, after hurling in their buddy's gear bag, they are a hot mess. I expected it, you should too.

Finally, I read a post about instructor pay and class costs. Pay is low because people accept it. There seems to be an endless supply of people that want to be instructors, and will work for peanuts to be one. As long as people are willing to accept the pay scale, don't bitch about it. Do what I did, vote with your feet and find something else to do.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

You know guys, I am a old man. I became a scuba instructor in July 1973, cross certified into PADI shortly after, my PADI number is M3998.

Do you have any idea how long I have heard people bitching about PADI? Since 1973. What has PADI done about it? They have moved from being a small organization with 6 employees in Costa Mesa to being a profitable worldwide corporation. That is what they have done in response to all of your bitching. Congratulations, you have really showed them!.

Now as to all the specialty classes we joke about. Someone thought they could sell these classes.Someone bought them. It is really disingenuous for you guys with 500, 1000 , 2000 dives to complain about these classes. A person with 10 dives may get something out of them, even if it is only to meet other people and get a couple of guided dives. They may have fun, God forbid. No one forces you to teach these. Don't get upset if people want to spend their money, its their money.

I guess I should address you buoyancy nazis. I was taught neutral buoyancy in my basic class in 1967. Why? We didn't have bc's. PADI had a required skill they called "hovering" in the mid 70's. I am all for teaching neutrally buoyant classes, off the bottom. Its a good idea. Its also stupid for people with hundreds or thousands of dives to get all butthurt if someone with 10 dives gets a knee or hand down.

I worked in South Florida a number of years. We would certify a diver, they would go back to New York, chip ice off their gonads for the winter, come back, show their OW card, get on a boat and they were a hot mess. Then the bitching would start. It was PADI's fault, the instructor was bad, the store was bad. Never occurred to anyone that you take a guy that has 8 dives, put him out of the water for 7 months, that when he gets back in, he's a hot mess. Or that if they dive twice during the winter in a fresh water quarry, when they jump off a boat in 3 foot chop, after hurling in their buddy's gear bag, they are a hot mess. I expected it, you should too.

Finally, I read a post about instructor pay and class costs. Pay is low because people accept it. There seems to be an endless supply of people that want to be instructors, and will work for peanuts to be one. As long as people are willing to accept the pay scale, don't bitch about it. Do what I did, vote with your feet and find something else to do.

Best post in the entire thread.

I was PADI certified in Northern California and we did our check our dives in 49 degree ocean water in wetsuits in a Cove full of urchins. We didn’t have a choice but to stay off the bottom otherwise we would have had knees full of urchin spines. The instructor was an ex Navy diver and very thorough. He went through everything in the book completely. We learned tables forwards and backwards. Everybody had to perform the skills without being half assed about it. His reasoning was that we were going to be diving in that environment on our own and he didn’t want the liability of letting his students out into the wild without a proper education and proof that they could handle it. There were a few people who sat out the ocean dives and got a referral to do them at their tropical vacation destination when they got there. He told them what they would be up against with the conditions and that there were no exceptions as far as sliding by on doing the skills.
I have nothing but good things to say about my PADI OW class, and all the other PADI classes I took.

 

[mhattenhauer]

When I took my OW class I had no friends or family that dived. I progressed quickly to AOW and specialties so I could dive. Without a buddy these classes kept me in the water. Have I spent a lot of money? Yes. Were the classes worth it? To me, yes. Now I am a PADI Divemaster/ Master Scuba Diver and working on my AI. I have enjoyed the time and effort I put in to get this far. I have made several good friends out of all the classes I took. My wife has made friends as well although she is still a non diver but tags along on the boat.

Its like the whole Ford vs. Chevy debate. People want to think their way is the best when in reality there isn't much difference.