Video from a Training Dive with John Chatterton

[wetb4igetinthewater]

There's a reason that every rescue course and CG rescue swimmers always approach victims from behind. Drowning people will take you down with them.

I took a risk once of letting a panicked diver climb all over me. I just grabbed his LPI, mashed the button, and he instantly relaxed as soon as he was lifted out of the water.

Had I not been able to reach his LPI from his thrashing (and he was thrashing), and he smacked my reg out of my mouth, I could always descend and switch to my pony.

 

[cerich]

How so? Even the most hypoxic bottom gasses are breathable up to 20ft - which assumes you have no intermediate deco gasses at all. Seems odd to me to be on a 10/70 or 12/65 dive with only O2 for deco.

.

if it hypoxic at whatever depth you grab it, it isn't getting better as you go up.

Yes, most tech "hypoxic" mixes are g2g to pretty shallow, however all I was saying is that a hypoxic mix in the context of the current depth.

Good call to ask me to clarify, because I was thinking extreme fringe diving depth wise where you may have a hypoxic at that depth gas still available (say BG and you lost all travel/stage/deco gas)) and no other choice, where as you are correct that most tech divers hypoxic mixes are not gonna be in that context, much more likely to have a gas with too much O2 for current depth available

 

[CptTightPants21]

is that a joke? every day CCR divers dive "planning" team bailout. Because a 40 is not gonna cut it at 60-70 m on the wall and in fact I know of one "huge team" CCR dive in Cayman where it literally took almost 10 CCR divers carried BO to get a diver to the roof alive. So, team bailout worked... ;-)

I wouldn't mind hearing the full story ( or any similar stories). Like I said, I don't doubt it might exist, but I have never seen it being used. When people say 'team bailout' I ask them if they have ever seen it used, I always get a ‘no’. I had one friend describe the practice as ‘Everyone has enough personal bailout gas, but if a team on CCR has one guy bailout, the team will periodically swap their full bottles for his empty ones so that the Bailouted diver doesn’t end up depleting all his BO gas’ – similar practice to sharing backup lights if one diver in a team is down to only one working light source. I tend not to dive with fu3kw1t5s so it is entirely possible I am self-censoring.

 

[doctormike]

I bolded something you said. Because it is important.

as far as a CESA from depth on a technical dive... drowning is a better way to go IMHO and I will choose that.

Now, if I have gas staged say on the line and I think I can get to it breathing the wrong gas I'm gonna give it a shot. It will be exceptionally unlikely to work but why not?(keep your workload low and try and control breathing rate and you'll be less likely to O2 tox) That said if a hypoxic mix it will just get worse as you ascend and the odds go from really bad to powerball bad.

Now, to underline something, Ox Tox is exposure and time but that time can be very short (as in a few breaths) depending on PPO2, personal tolerance at that time (which even in individuals will vary significantly day to day.. got a scar to prove it from toxing in a chamber while starting a hang over while still pretty much wasted)

Right. I have been at a PO2 of 2.8 in a chamber and didn't seize, but YMMV.

I think that the reason JC mentions that in class is that a lot of newer divers, even new technical divers, take MODs as such a bright line that they won't even consider taking a breath of something below MOD. He was just making the point that it might be the least worst option, and even a breath or two, if you are taking them on the way up to a safer depth, will probably not result in toxing in those few seconds. Also, he was referring to rich deco mixes, not hypoxic mixes.

 

[doctormike]

That's really not relevant to this discussion.

I though it was, I thought that that we were critiquing JC's disdain for gas sharing.

 

[rjack321]

I wouldn't mind hearing the full story ( or any similar stories). Like I said, I don't doubt it might exist, but I have never seen it being used. When people say 'team bailout' I ask them if they have ever seen it used, I always get a ‘no’. I had one friend describe the practice as ‘Everyone has enough personal bailout gas, but if a team on CCR has one guy bailout, the team will periodically swap their full bottles for his empty ones so that the Bailouted diver doesn’t end up depleting all his BO gas’ – similar practice to sharing backup lights if one diver in a team is down to only one working light source. I tend not to dive with fu3kw1t5s so it is entirely possible I am self-censoring.

I've seen really skimpy CCR BO on some charters I've been on (they werent my buddies), 25-30mins of BT at 200ft with an al40 of 21/35 and an lp50 of 50%. I had 2x al80s of BO for the same dives.

Also actual, what I can only call, alpine CCR diving - 40cf of air from 185ft. I was on OC on this wreck at the time.

They exist and have all sorts of rationalizations for the skimpy choices.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I though it was, I thought that that we were critiquing JC's disdain for gas sharing.

That's a story about a clown. Let's not go to extremes. I get that he believes that complete self reliance is important. I agree. People should have to be able to handle buddy separation and make it to the surface alive with all deco obligations met. The guy in that story was a statistic waiting to happen and did happen.

Hence, I see no applicability to the discussion at hand.

The question I'm asking is, does JC in the advanced wreck course teach air sharing or not? Again, only people who have taken the course are qualified to answer. I'm not interested in anyone's extrapolation from what they read on JC's website or anywhere else, unless it is a definitive answer to that question.

 

[cerich]

. Also, he was referring to rich deco mixes, not hypoxic mixes.

most likely but that is an assumption

 

[cerich]

I've seen really skimpy CCR BO on some charters I've been on (they werent my buddies), 25-30mins of BT at 200ft with an al40 of 21/35 and an lp50 of 50%. I had 2x al80s of BO for the same dives.

Also actual, what I can only call, alpine CCR diving - 40cf of air from 185ft. I was on OC on this wreck at the time.

They exist and have all sorts of rationalizations for the skimpy choices.

yup, same, many, many times

 

[rjack321]

I though it was, I thought that that we were critiquing JC's disdain for gas sharing.

It was relevant for me. Although... the name has been changed, the story is fictitious, it occurred outside the US, or it was from at least 12 or more years ago or some combination of that. There haven't been any OOA cave incidents like that in recent history.