A deceptively easy way to die

[MXGratefulDiver]

Lucky for you, there's a class where you can learn that and other things.

... I just perused that link, and learned that there's an agency out there that thinks split fins are appropriate gear for cave diving ... :shocked2:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[kelemvor]

... I just perused that link, and learned that there's an agency out there that thinks split fins are appropriate gear for cave diving ... :shocked2:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I hadn't noticed, I'll have to give my instructor a hard time! Their training materials clearly say split fins are not okay.

Fins: The fins most cave divers prefer can differ from typical recreational diving fins in many respects.

• Flat-bladed (“paddle&#8221 fins are preferred. Split and hinged fins may increase the risk of guideline entanglement and are not well suited to the specialized kicks associated with cave diving.

• Spring heel straps allow for easier donning and removal and may help reduce the risk of guideline entanglement in strap buckles.

Also, the video in question is included in the online materials on page 7...

 

[Yank]

... I just perused that link, and learned that there's an agency out there that thinks split fins are appropriate gear for cave diving ... :shocked2:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

photo- black split fins with spring straps ! ;-)

 

[oya]

So there's a picture on one of the other messageboards taken at Eagle's Nest today.

For those not familiar with Eagle's Nest; usual recommendations to safely dive it include: Full Cave Certification, Trimix Certification, & 100 safe cave dives. This is all BEFORE you go there with someone who's been there before. The top of the mound (reference below) is 130'. The bottom of the main "cavern" camber is 260'. The roof of the "cavern" chamber is 70'. Between 70 - 130 there is nothing but darkness. And people have died there, far more often than they should have.

The picture shows a diver in single-tank open water configuration.

And another diver's post as follows:
"I was also there today and saw these guys standing on the mound when my group returned from downstream side. They were flutter kicking the mound and blew out the ballroom while 2 groups of cave divers were in the cave (upstream & downstream).
While doing deco, they came up and did some kind of decompression/safety stop schedule before 1 guy left his buddy who stayed another ~5 minutes before he went up. After finishing our deco we talked to the guys, they had Virginia plates but said they have been diving at the Nest ~10 times before. I asked if they had any cave training and 1 guy proudly answered "we have been open water divers for 15 years". A few minutes later my buddy casually brought up the silt in the ballroom and the guy said "yeah it's pretty nasty in here, one time I got lost and almost ran out of air".
I stressed the importance of proper cave training but didn't feel I was right to tell them they could not dive there. Any suggestions on what we can do before they kill themselves and get the Nest shut down?"

Dammit that infuriates me.

 

[JohnnyC]

Well when you have people writing articles like this, it doesn't surprise me.

http://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/cave-dive-are-you-ready-for-it.521029/

 

[Neilwood]

So there's a picture on one of the other messageboards taken at Eagle's Nest today.

For those not familiar with Eagle's Nest; usual recommendations to safely dive it include: Full Cave Certification, Trimix Certification, & 100 safe cave dives. This is all BEFORE you go there with someone who's been there before. The top of the mound (reference below) is 130'. The bottom of the main "cavern" camber is 260'. The roof of the "cavern" chamber is 70'. Between 70 - 130 there is nothing but darkness. And people have died there, far more often than they should have.

The picture shows a diver in single-tank open water configuration.

And another diver's post as follows:
"I was also there today and saw these guys standing on the mound when my group returned from downstream side. They were flutter kicking the mound and blew out the ballroom while 2 groups of cave divers were in the cave (upstream & downstream).
While doing deco, they came up and did some kind of decompression/safety stop schedule before 1 guy left his buddy who stayed another ~5 minutes before he went up. After finishing our deco we talked to the guys, they had Virginia plates but said they have been diving at the Nest ~10 times before. I asked if they had any cave training and 1 guy proudly answered "we have been open water divers for 15 years". A few minutes later my buddy casually brought up the silt in the ballroom and the guy said "yeah it's pretty nasty in here, one time I got lost and almost ran out of air".
I stressed the importance of proper cave training but didn't feel I was right to tell them they could not dive there. Any suggestions on what we can do before they kill themselves and get the Nest shut down?"

Dammit that infuriates me.

I am not a cave diver (a long way off) but there are a few things that worry me about this that even I know with no training:
1) kick type/trim is very important
2) Leaving your buddy? Recipe for disaster
3) OW divers for 15 years - sounds like they have forgotten a lot of useful information!
4) Using lines is pretty much a given due to the "getting lost" scenario.
5) That gas was a problem suggests they might not have been carrying enough

Unfortunately some people will only find out that there is training for a reason when it is too late.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well when you have people writing articles like this, it doesn't surprise me.

http://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/cave-dive-are-you-ready-for-it.521029/

.. he's not even a cave diver ... he's just selling the gear ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[PhatD1ver]

In my experience far more people are led by irresponsible and dangerous operators into so called swim thru's on "clean wrecks" and in reefs than are led into caves. A number of the deaths in caves were by people going in on their own with a buddy that was equally clueless.

People have died after being led on tours of wrecks put down as artificial reefs and natural wrecks. They have disappeared after being led through formations such as the Devil's Throat in Cozumel by so called "professionals". These "pros" have only a cursory idea of the skill level and comfort level of the people they are leading. If they have any at all.

This is why such a video exists and why it should be shown to every new diver. So that they can be informed of one of the real risks of diving in an honest way.

This is the real point. Last summer, I dove Coron. And while I was doing SM & Wreck training after almost 100 dives, there were divers with only less than 10 dives in the group we were with diving the same wrecks. Led by a DM, not in training, yet here are divers with basically no experience diving thru out of light sections with overhead environments easily more than 140 feet from the surface at time (especially if they got lost).

Now, not every diver will heed the movie, they don't listen to instructors or friends. But at some point, I can promise we will be hearing and/or reading about deaths in Coron because of this practice (that is growing due to the number of Chinese divers with money to keep business growing in Asia).

 

[DevonDiver]

I made the video below, for wreck divers, after previously using 'Deceptively Easy Way To Die' in my recreational wreck classes. But my copy of the cave safety video was really low resolution and the audio was very low volume.

Regardless of the issues with untrained people going in caves, I believe that wreck penetration hazards get a lot less respect amongst the wider diving population... and especially amongst the instructor cadre. There needs to be more education... and not from the agencies (who are busy promoting duff wreck courses and marketing the activity with high-fiving day-glo clad, bottom-churning rototillers, bicycle kicking their way through wrecks...)

It'd be cool if someone with more directorial and acting talent than myself made a 'real' wreck danger video....

 

[PhatD1ver]

Thanks for that Andy, that's a great video, and reminds me of the second day of diving we did in Coron. We had a lady I called 'Manila Mama', she had this big photo rig, and we were diving Akitsushima, dropped down to the 39m mark and enter from the stern, as just after we enter, and are outside the light zone and I'm dropping straight down the little chimney-like entrance and suddenly, everything is a wall of silt. MM has scraped the wall of the wreck with her fins, and now it's just me, my light, and a lovely brown cloud. No guideline, can't see MM, but I can see her light, so I float there a minute, cover my light and then follow her light, I go maybe 2-3 meters and suddenly it's clear water and I can see three lights from the DM and other two divers. A real 'pucker factor' moment.