TSandM: Missing Diver in Clallam County, WA

[scubadada]

I find AGE unlikely. I think an ischemic cardiovascular event with a fatal tachyarrhythmia is the most likely explanation. I simply cannot accept that Lynne would not be able to surface if she was capable. The precipitating event may well have been extraordinary effort related to downcurrent and or the current in general.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Thanks, have dived in 9 to 10 or so knot--was wondering what this maxes out @.......

Not that it's germane to this accident - and I think Peter's description of the current is pretty accurate - but divers routinely and grossly over-estimate the speed of a current. ScubaLab did a fin kick speed test a few years ago (I've referenced it a couple of times in court testimony) and I think the top speed they came up with, and on only one one set of fins, was 3.2mph which is 2.8kts. Most divers can likely hold their own in 1.0-1.5mph but will feel the current is strong. They can probably make some headway over short distances but with great effort against 2mph (1.74kts). But anything stronger than that would IMHO overwhlem your ability to kick. 10 knots - about 12mph - would seem like a raging flood and you would liklely not even be willing to jump in.

- Ken

 

[Jack Hammer]

As as we are speculating... I can see a sudden massive change in depth pulling a diver down than back up quickly bringing about a reverse block in equalization causing extreme vertigo. That could quite easily lead to incapacitation.

 

[Couv]

Let me start off by saying my gut feeling is that Lynne had a medical event causing her death. Perhaps, as someone pointed out it was due to an incident and possible concussion she recently had with her horse. However, for the sake of this conversation, let's put medical issues aside.

Now what I'm going to ASK-not state-is probably going to ruffle a lot of people's feathers on this board. I apologize in advance for that, but I am trying to have an honest discussion on what may or may not have contributed to her death. Please bear in mind I know little to nothing about DIR/GUI training and procedures. Again, the following a more of a question than a statement. I'll readily accept any corrections to my understanding of DIR/GUE methods.

Gauging from what I have read on this board, one of the cornerstones of proper diving technique with the above group of divers, is to maintain "perfect trim" at all times. "Perfect trim" if I understand correctly, is having buoyancy and ballast balanced and the diver's posture is essentially parallel to the surface.

I think we can all agree in most cases, maintaining perfect trim is desirable. However, in some instances-and possibly in Lynne's, it can cause problems. One of those cases would be in a down current as experienced by Lynne and Peter. We know from Peter's post Lynne was first pushed 10-15 feet deeper than Peter who managed to stabilize at 85 feet, and then she found herself 10-15 feet above him. That's a 20-30 foot margin of difference in depth between dive buddies.

I believe in such situations, one should have their feet below them rather than parallel to the surface. In this position a simple kick is usually all that is needed to maintain depth or to slow decent. Conversely, maintaining "perfect trim" involves a buoyancy change.

Recently I ran across a thread that had a couple of illustrations demonstrating proper trim. The picture showing the "incorrect method" depicts a diver who is at a 45 degree angle to the surface and the "correct method" shows a diver parallel to the surface. While generally speaking, I agree with the intent of the post; however I would argue that the diver using the "incorrect trim" is much better suited to deal with a down current than the perfectly trimmed diver.

So, getting to the question: Medical issues aside, could the motivation to maintain proper trim have contributed to Lynne's accident?

I'll go on the record of saying yes.

 

[fisheater]

Any diver in "perfect trim," even a GUE/DIR/UTD diver can (and likely will) easily go vertical and kick up to battle a down current. No loss of "cool diver" points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalko

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Hi couv,

Interesting. I've never been in a very strong down current, but in the 1970's many of us dove without BC's, and at depth with full wet suit compression you either swam steadily or "broke trim" and finned slowly to hold position in the water column.

I see "trim" is being relative to the direction you are trying to move (in open water).

So, if that water column is moving nearly straight down, and you are in perfect horizontal trim, you'll have lost the "brakes" you fins can provide. You'll need to rapidly add air (drysuit, wing), then rapidly vent when the current lets you go.

I'm just rambling here. I see your reasoning, but not sure if it made too much difference since I believe she and Peter had experience with nasty currents before in their past diving, and knew that nasty currents could occur at this site.

I do think something "medical" happened. It sounded to me from Peter's description that in the final moment he saw Lynne she had gotten her rapid descent and ascent under control and was taking conscious action (venting her suit), but then she was simply "gone" (out of his visual range).

Best wishes.

 

[DaleC]

Having just taken a Fundies course with Lynne this spring I think GUE has a very different view on trim than is related about them on the boards. We talked about, and practiced, creating what they called the "stable table". This is a three legged platform composed of trim (orientation) buoyancy and propulsion. Three techniques or "focuses" that work together to allow the diver to position themselves wherever they want to be in the water column. Trim is not a "stand alone" obsession, at least not the way it was taught to us.

I observed Lynne to be quite capable of assuming any orientation she thought best, depending upon the task (unlike me who appeared to have no reverse gear).

 

[Akimbo]

… but divers routinely and grossly over-estimate the speed of a current…

I concur, but so do most small boat captains (200 ton licenses and lower). Same with swell height. It isn’t that easy unless you have a lot of time at sea near fixed objects and you actually have a reason to take measurements.

Diving and Seamanship, Swell Height and Current Speed

 

[lamont]

Gauging from what I have read on this board, one of the cornerstones of proper diving technique with the above group of divers, is to maintain "perfect trim" at all times. "Perfect trim" if I understand correctly, is having buoyancy and ballast balanced and the diver's posture is essentially parallel to the surface.

You should take an actual course rather than basing your impressions off of what you read on the Internet.

Neutral trim is only supposed to be your default platform. If you are stable and neutral and floating on deco, or swimming horizontally you should default to neutral trim. If you are dumping gas, or kicking up or down you are expected to break trim. As you ascend or descent on an ascent line you are expected to break trim to initiate and arrest changes in depth. Back when I did RecTriox in 2005 we did runaway inflator drills (it was a 'thing' back then due to certain events) where we showed that even with a stuck on inflator hammering our wing with gas we could dump out the rear dump and kick down and maintain position because you can kick down quite hard with big fins on -- but we certainly weren't in trim when we did that. There were a few situations where we had it beat into us to always remember that we had fins on our feet (a few occasions with failed right posts divers would try to inflate their wing and sink even though they had a working drysuit inflator and fins, and that all got corrected in video review).

So this idea that you have to be perfectly flat 100% of the time is entirely a construct of the Internet, created by people like you who haven't taken a course and don't even dive this way.

 

[Ayisha]

... So, getting to the question: Medical issues aside, could the motivation to maintain proper trim have contributed to Lynne's accident?

I'll go on the record of saying yes.

Probably not. Trim is one part of a dynamic and part of a larger picture, as Dale mentioned. Trim is perhaps the easiest part of the equation to see.

Perhaps some of the older threads about dealing with downcurrents should be revisited. If you come across a downcurrent, the easiest way to get out of it is to kick across it away from the wall. You could kick completely away from the wall or at least across the wall, until you come out of the vertical water column. These downcurrents tend to not be that wide, perhaps not even 10 feet, but unlikely to be more than 30 feet across. You couldn't effectively kick upwards against a strong downcurrent. Rather than riding the current down, the fastest way to get out of the downcurrent is by kicking laterally out of it.

I was caught in a downcurrent once in Belize and I kicked away from the wall and got spit out of it. Friends of mine were caught in a downcurrent in Cozumel 2 years before that, while I was in a different area, and the instructor immediately kicked his way out of it while the two students inflated their BC's and rode it down from 90 feet to 130 feet, not knowing what to do, when the downcurrent finally let them go.

Walls tend to have converging currents and it's a good idea to watch particles in front of you. You may see them moving downward at some points rather than just across a wall. Staying a little further from a wall is also a good idea to avoid downcurrents.

You'll need to rapidly add air (drysuit, wing), then rapidly vent when the current lets you go.

It would complicate things to add air to a wing then rapidly vent after because these events happen extremely fast, and there would likely be some over-correction after the current lets you go. It doesn't appear that a fully inflated wing does much against an extremely powerful downcurrent.