Honest question for you dive masters instructors out there

[rogngirls]

Herb, As a DM I have to and will check your gear before I let you get in the water. We do this not to just have something to do, but also to cover my A**. If i let you jump in the water and I have not checked to ensure that your gear is safe, and your tank is on, I am leaving myself open for liability and I wont let that happen. So if you go on any of my dives, either accept that I a going to check or find a different boat to dive off of. I am not about to lose something that took me a long time and money to obtain, and leave myself open for you to sue if something goes wrong. Sorry to sound snobby, but we are the ones that are liable and will be held accountable.

 

[Mustard Dave]

Why is a DM required to check the kit of a qualified diver? If I grove my car into a tree and went through the windscreen, would the petrol station I left a mile back be liable because they didn't check my seatbelt was on?

 

[MarkHerm]

I understand that it is probably good practice for a DM to somewhat verify that their customers have turned air on before jumping in. I respect this and I don't have any problem with. On the contrary, the help is definitely appreciated.

For me, on the other hand, it is very important at what specfic momement this check is performed. I have no problem if you check my equipment while it's not on my back or before I and my buddy do our own checks (or at the same time). Alternatively the DM can watch me and my buddy perfom the checks or alike. What really does not give me warm and fuzzy feeling is when you start to turn my valves behind my neck, where I cannot see what you are doing, in the moment I am to jump in. No offense, but I trust my own check and verification of my buddy way more than that of a to me unkown DM or boat staff. The DM then puts me in position that I have to blindly trust him as his valve turning rendered my previously performed checks useless and I cannot verify that the valve is still fully open (given a regular single tank setup where you usually cannot reach back yourself). After all, it is me that take the risk of jumping in with a closed valve so I want to be the one who is in charge in the end. So if I ask a DM to not check my valves right before I jump in, I expected this to respected. If a DM cannot live with that, I am happy to go with a different operator next time.

Either way, I believe that this matter should be easily resolvable with a polite chat with the crew if necessary.

 

[smokin3000gt]

I can't believe what a big deal the OP has turned this into. Two separate threads all about the same thing. You said asking the DM for his c card was tongue in cheek but yet, you started a whole new thread for it titled "Honest question for you DMs". And the whole passive aggressive thing is crap IMO. You (anyone that's passive aggressive) sit there and stool about it and get pissed off about it then walk off the boat without leaving a tip. If that's the way "communicate" then fine but I think it's a cop out. If you have a problem you should be able to man up and have a polite conversation after the first dive and come to a mutual understanding with the DM before the second dive. If you still can't come to an agreement then don't dive with that op anymore. Like it has been mentioned, DM's are required to do what they do by their EMPLOYER or they loose their job. Hardly a reason to stiff the guy that worked just as hard for you whether you like the boats policies or not.

 

[Rick Murchison]

...
this is a real question I am not trying to be a donkey about this I want your opinion

thank you

This is a real opinion too... I think you're pole vaulting over mouse droppings.

Rick

 

[DaleC]

Herb, As a DM I have to and will check your gear before I let you get in the water. We do this not to just have something to do, but also to cover my A**. If i let you jump in the water and I have not checked to ensure that your gear is safe, and your tank is on, I am leaving myself open for liability and I wont let that happen. So if you go on any of my dives, either accept that I a going to check or find a different boat to dive off of. I am not about to lose something that took me a long time and money to obtain, and leave myself open for you to sue if something goes wrong. Sorry to sound snobby, but we are the ones that are liable and will be held accountable.

Please show where a DM is legally mandated to check someone's personal kit. Unless specifically hired to provide personal assistance, your job is to act as a tour guide. As a certified diver my job is to look after my own personal equipment. Offering assistance is nice but hardly mandatory. No where on a waiver have I ever read that I am required to cede my personal responsibility to a DM.

It also isn't "your" dive. I don't pay so you can have your dive - I pay to have my dive. You are there to facilitate my dive. Seems you have the "important hat" on the wrong head.

As someone in the hospitality industry, the focus should be on the customers experience, not your own. If you piss off customers by insisting on unnecessary and unwanted intrusions into their personal space you're doing it wrong.

 

[Mustard Dave]

Please show where a DM is legally mandated to check someone's personal kit. Unless specifically hired to provide personal assistance, your job is to act as a tour guide. As a certified diver my job is to look after my own personal equipment. Offering assistance is nice but hardly mandatory. No where on a waiver have I ever read that I am required to cede my personal responsibility to a DM.

It also isn't "your" dive. I don't pay so you can have your dive - I pay to have my dive. You are there to facilitate my dive. Seems you have the "important hat" on the wrong head.

As someone in the hospitality industry, the focus should be on the customers experience, not your own. If you piss off customers by insisting on unnecessary and unwanted intrusions into their personal space you're doing it wrong.

Abso-bloody-lutely!

Another point - what are the legal implementations of a DM failing to check someone's tank valve compared with a DM turning off a tank valve (as some say they have personally experienced)?

In the first instance your defence is simple - "I checked the diver's certification when he booked the trip. In order to gain that qualification he must have demonstrated to a crtified instructor he is able to correctly assemble and check his kit, and is told he must perform buddy checks before diving".

I cannot see how you would end up in anything other than very deep, smelly, brown stuff if you turned off somebody's gas. With that in mind, if I was operating a diving operation, I would instruct my staff not to touch anybody other than a student's valve.

 

[lindenbruce]

You know, I don't know what kind of DM's or dive operators some people on this thread have been diving with that get angry over and air check. I too, on very few occasions, have forgotten to turn my air on and the boat crew did it for me before splash down. It seems as though there is an implication that some boat crew members are all "touchy feely" and in the process of ticking off certain divers. I have done a fair amount of boat diving both on six packs, day boats and three day live aboards. And NEVER have I ever had a DM or crew member come up to me and start making adjustments to my gear and doing "this" and "that" before splash down. All I have ever gotten is an air valve check. And like I have said there has been a time or two that I forgot to turn it on and that was taken care of at the gate, thankfully. I have never objected to this. It just makes good safety sense.

Now, I knew as a firearms instructor and as a field training officer back in the day, that as a trainer you will develop and eye for those that are doing it "right" and also for these that are doing it "wrong". And as such you are going to assist those that are doing it "wrong". That's what you are there for. That's quit possibly what is going on here I would suspect. And if someone is getting their stuff "adjusted" well maybe then there is a problem with that person's stuff whether or not they realize it. I'm sure that DM's and boat crews are observing those in their charge while the boat is getting under way. And during that process I'm sure they are making mental notes about who may or may not need a little extra help. And then giving that assistance when the time comes. Again, that's what they are supposed to do. So lets go dive shall we? B

 

[KevWind]

This is a real opinion too... I think you're pole vaulting over mouse droppings.

Rick

And so it is that often times the simplest observation is the most profound. Life is short and there are in fact real concerns to worry about beyond the scope of ego. Can we say (re -check ) done.

 

[nimoh]

Abso-bloody-lutely!

Another point - what are the legal implementations of a DM failing to check someone's tank valve compared with a DM turning off a tank valve (as some say they have personally experienced)?

In the first instance your defence is simple - "I checked the diver's certification when he booked the trip. In order to gain that qualification he must have demonstrated to a crtified instructor he is able to correctly assemble and check his kit, and is told he must perform buddy checks before diving".

I cannot see how you would end up in anything other than very deep, smelly, brown stuff if you turned off somebody's gas. With that in mind, if I was operating a diving operation, I would instruct my staff not to touch anybody other than a student's valve.

furthermore, if a DM is legally obligated to check air (IMO, this is not true), why is it limited to checking air?

If my BC inflator hose was not connected, or simply didn't work, and subsequently plummeted to my death (assuming I also forgot how to orally inflate), would the DM be liable for that, since they didn't check it?

Personally, I think as people are getting off the boat, DMs should ask "is your air on? want me to check it?", If the person declines and their air is not on, I don't see how the DM could be held liable in a court of law. Because of this, I don't think this discussion should be about legal implications.

It doesn't really bother me if they do check it, but after they check it, I will do a flow check either on the boat or in the water, and it is no big deal. After all, they are trying to be helpful, even though I would rather they didn't touch my gear.