OWC Skills in a BP/W

[knowone]

I'm just in the process of getting my OWC and I've having a bit of trouble using my BP/W for one of the skills. I can't get my arms back through the shoulder straps when I have my equipement off and floating on the surface because the wing (when inflated) makes it too tight as it flares out and around the backplate into the area where my shoulders go. I can comfortably wear it once it's on and inflated. I'm also diving double steel 72s and they sink if I let any more air out of my wing on the surface (in the long run, I want to get into more technical diving, which is why I'm learning in all that gear, rather than a more simple jacket style BC). I'm a small woman (5'2", 120lbs) and would really like to be able to do all of my diving in a BP/W.

Also - I tend to roll practically onto my head dork2 because my upper body is so top heavy. Yep, I'm still completely an awkward flail-er in the water. Is there a way to compensate for that without going to ankle weights? I'm just nervous about adding even more weight to my setup.

Any suggestions on improving how my gear is set up or bouyancy help is completely welcome!

I'm so excited to be learning to dive! Thanks so much for reading my long winded question!

Well done. Go for it.

Incorporate a buckle and D ring or an adjusting device, slide, into your webbing at the left shoulder.
Broken buckles occur only in DIR propaganda and on the internet.

Wear a weight belt.
In the impossible event your gear falls off with your other shoulder strap and waistbelt keeping it on, it will not immediately sink to the bottom of the ocean, however if there is no weight attached to your body you will rise uncontrollably to the surface.

My first use of doubles was to about 160ft.

WHAT?ityparty:

Should I have diven a single.

 

[peterbj7]

I thought this thread was a joke when I first saw it. Now I've read it I'm sure it is.

 

[DevonDiver]

I don't see an issue with diving doubles from the outset.... providing your instructor has the time and capacity to teach that properly to OW standard.

I am surprised that the OP is having trouble with a simple skill like remove/replace the scuba unit. For a start, the wing is rear-mounted, so it shouldn't have any real effect on tightening the harness (which would be a problem in a fully inflated jacket BCD).

What technique has your instructor shown you, for the removal and replacement? Having an idea of what he's demonstrated for you, may help resolve the source of the problem.

How tight is your harness? The common problem (often leading to mis-assumptions about BP&Ws) is that the harnesses are fitted much too tightly. Many BP&W divers continue to fit their harness, as if it were a jacket BCD... and it is far too tight. For instance, how many fingers/hands can you get under the harness at chest/shoulder level? Is it loose enough to 'shrug' off when sitting down out of the water?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

"However, when you look at the compression of that 7MM wetsuit on the descent to 21M (70 ft) you will see a buoyancy change of as much as 5 or 6 Kg (up to 14 lbs) possibly even more for a brand new suit.

That seems unlikely for the OP.....

I'm a small woman (5'2", 120lbs)

 

[missyvonne]

I don't see an issue with diving doubles from the outset.... providing your instructor has the time and capacity to teach that properly to OW standard.

I am surprised that the OP is having trouble with a simple skill like remove/replace the scuba unit. For a start, the wing is rear-mounted, so it shouldn't have any real effect on tightening the harness (which would be a problem in a fully inflated jacket BCD).

What technique has your instructor shown you, for the removal and replacement? Having an idea of what he's demonstrated for you, may help resolve the source of the problem.

How tight is your harness? The common problem (often leading to mis-assumptions about BP&Ws) is that the harnesses are fitted much too tightly. Many BP&W divers continue to fit their harness, as if it were a jacket BCD... and it is far too tight. For instance, how many fingers/hands can you get under the harness at chest/shoulder level? Is it loose enough to 'shrug' off when sitting down out of the water?

I'm doing my class privately so we go at my pace and I have the instructor's undivided attention and time to work with my set up. When diving for pleasure, he dives a BP/W but had on a jacket-style BCD for the class. He had me do the skill in his kit after I had issues doing it in mine, so I know I can do the skill in a jacket style BCD at the surface and at depth no problem. This leads me to believe that I'm *hopefully* not a lost cause because I know that I can do it in that style, so I just need to adjust my gear a bit better.

Upon further review, we did decide that my harness is too tight. I can *just* get into it when it's sitting on a bench and I put it on like a backpack. So we're going to loosen up the straps some. He is also going to add some weight to me to get my butt down .

Thank you for the imput and not immediately dismissing my want to do my OWC in doubles as an awful idea!

 

[rongoodman]

Don't forget to tighten up the crotch strap to keep things snug after loosening the shoulder straps. If those doubles start shifting around, you won't like it. XS Scuba and Deep Sea Supply have handy tail weight pouches, and a 3 or 4 lb soft weight should fit between the tanks and the BP. I assume you're using an aluminum BP?

 

[TSandM]

I don't know how much weight you can use, but I found a 7 lb half v-weight hung off the bottom bolt FINALLY rendered the 72s tamable.

Honestly, I think you are making your life far more difficult than it needs to be, by learning to dive in doubles. I found there was a lot of value in the stability I had already learned in a single tank, when I started trying to balance a bunch of steel on my back. I had my posture already mastered, and posture is a LOT of it. I have never seen an OW student, how matter how talented, who could easily maintain the long, straight knees-up posture that you need to balance doubles, once they got into cold water, heavy exposure protection, and low viz. And that's in a single tank.

I think you've probably solved the harness issue. After Bob Sherwood worked with mine, it was MUCH looser, and now I just have to let a tiny bit of gas out of the wing to be able to work my arms into my harness.

One more note on balance -- Take a good look at where your weight belt rides. LauraJ pointed out to me the other day that my entire 12 lb weight belt is actually ABOVE that bottom bolt weight on my doubles, so it was really doing little to no good to counterbalance the head-heavy tanks.

 

[chevv58]

I stay out of these internet conversations for the most part, but I feel as though I may actual have some valid input on this subject.

I am an experienced technical diver (cave, trimix, CCR), as well as an SDI OW instuctor. While I didn't complete my OW course in a BP/W, I did start diving one immediatly afterwards. Furthermore, I have successfully taught several of my beginning OW students in a BP/W and doubles configuration. This being said, there are several factors that all need to be taken into consideration when deciding on appropriate gear configurations. And really, we all should know this, and make no assumptions. 99% of the divers I see on shipwreck charters here in the Great Lakes, are diving a backplate and wing.

And, I'm sure missyvonne knows some divers in the area, and is aware of the same. So, why would she want to learn on anything other than what she is going to end up with?

Is the learning curve that much more difficult? My opinion is no. The difficulty comes from changing from a configuration you may have been accustomed to. To those unaware, there are training agency sanctioned OW CCR courses. Yes, you're first diving course can be on CCR. I know several people who's first SCUBA course was a cave (more appropriatly cavern) course in doubles, just ask any cave diver born in High Springs, FL. Any of these routes certainly poses a steeper learning curve than taking up an OW course in a BP/W and double 72s set up.

With regard to some tanks being more appropriate than others, sure we can nit pick. But, really, are LP72s vs. LP80s going to make the difference between someone learning how to dive and not? I don't think so. If that detail is the breaking point, the instructor has failed.

As a side note, the compression of a wetsuit as it pertains to bouyancy characteristics, don't assume anything. I know several divers in the area that have non(or very minimal)-compressing wetsuits. This is another factor characteristic of us cold water low vis Great Lakes folks.

Finally safety, missyvonne, I don't know who your "mentor" is, well, maybe I do, and don't know it. But, in any case, there are some factors you need to consider, that some have made a point of. Please feel free to contact me, or have your mentor contact me if you want a second set of eyes going over things. Some things you'll wnat to consider are;

1. Backup bouyancy: Consider using a double bladder wing, or as experience and comfort allows, a lift bag tucked into a backplate pouch, and eventually a drysuit.
2. Tank weights may help you trim out.
3. Given your smaller stature, you may need to alter standard HOG hose lenghts to avoid any tangled hoses or hang ups. For example, try a 5' hose for your primary rather than a 7'. Also your HP hose may need to be slightly shorter.
4. Consider an aluminum backplate, rather than standard steel, if you aren't already using one.

I'm sure there are plenty of things I'm forgetting. But, really, please feel free to message me, I'm always looking for new divers.

Just my .02

 

[DevonDiver]

Upon further review, we did decide that my harness is too tight. I can *just* get into it when it's sitting on a bench and I put it on like a backpack. So we're going to loosen up the straps some.

It is amazing just how loose a harness should be. It is very counter-intuitive, because people's natural instincts will see them wanting to cinch it tightly like a parachute or rucksack harness. Regular jacket BCDs compound this, because the need to add or dump air affects the fit of the jacket...and also, they don't have a crotch strap.

The crotch strap plays a vital role in BP&W fitting. It is the only thing that should be 'tight'. The shoulder harness on my BP&W and wing is so loose that I can virtually just shrug it off with my shoulders. The waist harness and crotch strap keep it secure. I can even remove my arms from the shoulder straps without loosening the waist harness. It is nice

He is also going to add some weight to me to get my butt down .

I've never dived with the cylinders you use, so I cannot talk authoratively. However, I would caution generally against adopting the mindset of adding weight to resolve trim issues. This should only ever be a last resort.

Firstly...take some time to 'balance' your existing kit over your centre of gravity. Experiment with it. Some resolutions can be counter-intuitive... it is not simply a balancing act.

Secondly... look to see if you can remove anything to improve your trim.

Thirdly... investigate whether you can adjust your balance through your equipment choices. For instance, replacing a 'floaty' set of fins with a very negative/heavy pair of fins.. will have the same effect as adding more weight to your lower torso.

Thank you for the imput and not immediately dismissing my want to do my OWC in doubles as an awful idea!

I don't see doubles as being an issue at all. Many divers automatically associate them with advanced/technical diving. That is simply not the case. They may take more time and patience to master initially, but they are just another style of BCD and air source.

If you were to take full advantage of doubles.... by using an isolated manifold then, of course, you would need further training on how to do shut-down procedures...and this exceeds OW training. Likewise if you were using independant doubles...and reg swapping to balance your tank consumption during the dive. But if you were simply using the doubles as 'one large tank', then any training you did would exist within the remit of OW course standards.

I think it is admirable that your instructor is taking the time and patience to instruct you this way...and has given you the option to dive in the configuration that you want. Many instructors would not take the time to even properly teach trim and buoyancy to studends in basic poodle jackets.... so I don't think any criticism is deserved for either you or your instructor. It sounds like a model course.

 

[ArcticDiver]

Since the OP posted that this is a private instruction environment and has posted that the issue has been and is being discussed with the instructor I wonder if all the SB "helpers" aren't taking a bit of frustration and venting too seriously.

The OP has made no mention of not having confidence in the instructor so that apparently isn't an issue.

Frankly, given the antique objections to other things, like doing OW in a dry suit, that have since been put aside I really don't see any problem with learning with the kit the OP intends to use post certification. Some of us are real stick in the mud kind of people when it comes to acknowledging that one size does not fit all.

The prior poster points out comes closest to giving the best advise. I don't know any reason why an instructor is limited from teaching more skills than demanded in the course.

Betcha the OP is going to be more comfortable in the water than the number of dives would indicate.